Movies and Criticism

[Daniel]

*moved from another thread*

I saw "Eyes" but didn't much care for it, the movie, the direction (I fell for the name!), the acting, the theme - it was all just wrong for me. I like "Magnolia" or whatever it was called, better and very few others even like that one. Ha!

I've seen bits and pieces of "Born" but I have zero desire to see it - I don't like the actor, the topic, the themes it advertised, the message of the people who rallied around it, and even the director much, tho Stone is a whole nother topic! I'd see a Vietnam movie based on Tim O'Brien's writings probably, but this one just comes across as all wrong for me too.
-----
That's funny, watching "Braveheart" and hearing Amis - I've done that with other things, like seeing longtime tv actors get movie leads - like Clooney as Batman - never worked for me cuz all I saw was Dr. Ross!

***

I don't usually dig Oliver Stone so much, either. I did like Wall Street which I just saw again last night. I also liked Scarface and Stone did the script for that movie, I think. Eyes Wide Shut is a so-so delivery from Kubrick, but after seeing it 2x I've now at least come to a grudging stay-awake throughout sort of vibe with it. I just thought "Born onthe 4th" and "Eyes" were the best movies I've seen Cruise in; he also had a bit part in "Taps" with a couple of good one-liners.
I'm not trying to claim that I don't have a weakness for mediocre or even bad actors or movies. Shoot, I love David Carradine! :wink: Just bought the dvd set of the original 1970's "Kung FU" series; how much chessier can you get than that? I've been watching and really liking a lot fo westerns, lately, as well, don't ask me why. The best one I've seen recently is "Winchester '73" with Jimmy Stewart! A great movie sort of a western noir.

I used to really dislike westerns, and now I suddenly really am enthusiastic about them, so see how quickly thngs can change? I am fascinated by the evolution of popular and personal tatse in pop/mass culture. I think watching and gauging trends in other genres like movies and music can be very helpful to writers and reviewers in the SF fields.

Anyway, here's a new thread where we canblow about what we like and don't like in movies and whatever else.

So, Jason,do you like westerns at all? Or just romantic comedies [img]/emoticons/lol.gif[/img]

















Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Dave Hardy]

The problem with Eyes Wide Shut is that it is a tale from early 20th c Germany transported to late 20th c America. Kubrick tells the story with his usual compelling visuals and excellent acting, but come on! I'll suspend disbelief for say, 40-foot tall radiactive dinosaurs eating Tokyo. But a bunch of pols and fat cats make up a sex-mafia? No way. Guys get popped for messing around all the time. They hardly need a club, just a quiet place. How about the OVAL OFFICE for crying out loud! Smears and intimidation sure, making people disappear, *shrug*. I read plenty of Arkancide stuff, I used to go hang out with Alex Jones for that matter. If the POTUS has to brazen it out in front of the Senate, then why are these guys so special?

Oddly, I've been watching Westerns lately too. 'Red River', 'The Searchers', & 'Fort Apache', all good stuff. I've posted reviews of some of them on my blog just lately.

-Dave

Dave Hardy

Fire & Sword
Fire & Sword Blog

[von Darkmoor]

I read some of those reviews today, Dave, thanks. I have each of those movies - I think I inherited the whole Wayne collection from my grandfather - but I haven't watched Red River yet. Not that I've been watching them often, but when I do select from this collection I've been watching The Duke's television serials like The Three Musketeers and some other really old works [img]/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]

Westerns. Westerns? I grew up reading westerns and loved 'em. I think a lot of my personality is based upon what I learned from them. Watching them was different. I remember watching the Lone Ranger and Tonto on, what?, Sunday afternoons? or was that Saturdays? None of the old black and whites stick out in my memory, but I remember scenes - generally very similar - from many. I never got into the singing cowboys, but I did love Bonanza!

Modern movies, I think Tombstone is a hell of a movie; I enjoyed Unforgiven but didn't have any of the problems or praise for it that seems to split opinions regarding it; I like most any Clint movie, first because I like him, second because I seem to like all the characters he's played (granted, all mostly the same [img]/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] ); the Lonesome Dove miniseries was good and prompted me to get the books - which I have not read yet (I know, I know, there have been many recommendations for them across this forum); I'm not much of a Kevin Costner fan but I did think the movie he did a year or two (or three) ago with Paul Newman was rather well done, I just can't recall the name.

I think Westerns were the perfect vehicle for their time, the perfect vehicle for a larger-than-life hero like Wayne. They wouldn't make it today, not as predominately as then, nor do we have any such heroic figure to play them. I think we could say that Westerns - movies and books - were the superhero stories of their time. It's easy to see society transitioning those heros and values into superheros.

So, Dan, to answer your question: Yes, I like Westerns 'at all' [img]/emoticons/lol.gif[/img]

Now, what's this about romantic comedies . . . . [img]/emoticons/skull.gif[/img]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Waltz
~ Get with it @ www.vondarkmoor.blogspot.com Today!

[Daniel]

So, Dan, to answer your question: Yes, I like Westerns 'at all'

Now, what's this about romantic comedies . . . .

***

Just jerking your chain a little on that one! What did you think of The Long Riders, did'ya see that one back in 1980 or thereabouts? I re-watched the other night and would give it a '7' on a one to ten scale, but I'm afflicted with Carradinitis as I mentioned earlier [img]/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]

I used to watch the Lone Ranger reruns on TV as a boy myself. And also Rawhide--- head 'em up,. move 'em out! Oh yeah, good stuff!

Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Daniel]

I think Tombstone is a hell of a movie;

***

I got to see the last half of this one the otehr night and loved it; now to see the full movie!!! See, I have these rugrats around here....

Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Daniel]

The problem with Eyes Wide Shut is that it is a tale from early 20th c Germany transported to late 20th c America. Kubrick tells the story with his usual compelling visuals and excellent acting, but come on! I'll suspend disbelief for say, 40-foot tall radiactive dinosaurs eating Tokyo. But a bunch of pols and fat cats make up a sex-mafia?

***

That is a spot-on observation. Cool you just made 'sense ' of the movie for me in a big way, as far as why it doesn't really work overall. I find myself in 100% agreement with your remarks.

I'll definitely check out the reviews at your blog.

Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Christopher_Heath]

Yeah, I think Clint Eastwood made the beast westerns. I'm not much of a fan (hate John Wayne), but Eastwood is fantastic. He does a great job in about every movie he's involved with, though I'm sure he's made a few turkeys. I doubt if I'd like the 'Any Which Way but Loose' movies if I saw them today, but maybe. I have 'The Outlaw Josey Wales' on dvd, and there's a commerical for a John Wayne movie that's freaking hilarious (in a bad way). I guess it takes a certain point of view to like Marion, but I don't see it. I do an impression of John Wayne ordering girlie drinks; it came from a radio show I once heard (imagine The Duke's voice): 'I'd like a pink squirrel. Slippery nipples for everyone young missy!'

Christopher M. Heath

"Azieran: The Conquerors" in Chimaera Serials
"Azieran: Pawn of theSerpentine Witch" in Chronicles of Fantasy by ComStar Media
"Azieran: Sentinel of an Ageless Reign" in Chronicles of Fantasy by ComStar Media
"Azieran: The Lakeshorn Mirrors" in Chronicles of Fantasy by ComStar Media
"Azieran: Crestfallen in Mal'kyrrik" serialized novella in Forgotten Worlds
"Azieran: Wyrd Sins" in Rogue Worlds
"The Coruscate King" in Freehold: Betrayal - Ghourlesh Book I
"Azieran: Beyond the Black Veil" in Stalking Shadows
"Azieran: In the Wake of Ain Koph's Fall" in Grendelsong #4
"Azieran: Kaiburr the Rotund"in Blood, Blade, and Thruster


+ others

[Daniel]

I do an impression of John Wayne ordering girlie drinks; it came from a radio show I once heard (imagine The Duke's voice): "I'd like a pink squirrel. Slippery nipples for everyone young missy!"

***

That's great Chris, try that at your next poker game!That'd throw off the competition for sure!

[img]/emoticons/lol.gif[/img]

Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Ropespor]

Daniel, when you mentioned David Carradine and westerns in the same post, the first movie I thought of was _The Long Riders_. Then you brought it up in a later post. For those who haven't seen it, they cast real-life acting families--the Carradines and the Quaids--to play the Youngers and the James brothers. I have a soft spot for that one because I'm blood-related to the Youngers and related through marriage to the James gang.(I'm also related to the Dalton Gang--funny how all them outlaw bands were related.)


Jason and Daniel, lemme throw out a couple for you that make my top ten: _The Wild Bunch_, _Rio Bravo_, _The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance_ (John Wayne AND Jimmy Stewart!), the original _Stagecoach_. I actually got to teach the latter two in a college film course.


Speaking of Rio Bravo, here's an interesting Tarantino anecdote especially for Nathan: Tarantino said in an interview that when he dated a new girl, one of the first things he'd do was watch _Rio Bravo_ with her. If she didn't get into it, he knew the relationship had no future.


Chris, if you're an Eastwood fan, hunt down _High Plains Drifter_. And if you've ever seen _Pale Rider_, you'll see how Eastwood's mysterious stranger from the newer film is a reprisal of the one in High Plains Drifter.





"You see, my mule don't like people laughing, gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him..."


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[Frank Menser]

Glad someone mentioned Liberty Valance. Loved The Wild Bunch. But if we are going for the best western of all time, my vote is for THE SEARCHERS...a movie Wayne loved so much that he named one of his sons for the main character.

Another great, but more out of the ordinary western is Man In The Widerness.

Frank

It's just my imagination...running away with me.


Coming soon, BREATHE in DREADED PALL magazine.

[Jeff Stehman]

I gotta go with True Grit, which also happens to be one of the few John Wayne movies I really like. (I greatly prefer the remake of Stagecoach to the original.)

--Jeff Stehman

[Daniel]

I have a soft spot for that one because I'm blood-related to the Youngers and related through marriage to the James gang. (I'm also related to the Dalton Gang--funny how all them outlaw bands were related.)

***

That's really cool. What's fascinating about The Long Riders is how historically accurate it seems to be in some spots and how outrageously not historically accurate it is in others (The Cole Younger knife fight forex). One thing is for sure, the true history of the "Old West" is as over-the-top and as interesting as the fiction created out of its historical roots.

I think The Long Riders is a great movie, could've been better with a stronger Jesse James character, that's really my only complaint with the film so far.




Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Christopher_Heath]

Yeah, I 've seen High Plains Drifter and Pale Rider...great flicks!

Christopher M. Heath

"Azieran: The Conquerors" in Chimaera Serials
"Azieran: Pawn of theSerpentine Witch" in Chronicles of Fantasy by ComStar Media
"Azieran: Sentinel of an Ageless Reign" in Chronicles of Fantasy by ComStar Media
"Azieran: The Lakeshorn Mirrors" in Chronicles of Fantasy by ComStar Media
"Azieran: Crestfallen in Mal'kyrrik" serialized novella in Forgotten Worlds
"Azieran: Wyrd Sins" in Rogue Worlds
"The Coruscate King" in Freehold: Betrayal - Ghourlesh Book I
"Azieran: Beyond the Black Veil" in Stalking Shadows
"Azieran: In the Wake of Ain Koph's Fall" in Grendelsong #4
"Azieran: Kaiburr the Rotund"in Blood, Blade, and Thruster


+ others

[Daniel]

Yeah, I think Clint Eastwood made the beast westerns. I'm not much of a fan (hate John Wayne), but Eastwood is fantastic. He does a great job in about every movie he's involved with

***

Clint's ok. He's not my favorite western actor though. I am *trying* to like all those spaghetti westerns he made; I'll keep trying until I get it right [img]/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]

Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Daniel]

Jason and Daniel, lemme throw out a couple for you that make my top ten: _The Wild Bunch_, _Rio Bravo_, _The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance_ (John Wayne AND Jimmy Stewart!), the original _Stagecoach_. I actually got to teach the latter two in a college film course.

Speaking of Rio Bravo, here's an interesting Tarantino anecdote especially for Nathan: Tarantino said in an interview that when he dated a new girl, one of the first things he'd do was watch _Rio Bravo_ with her. If she didn't get into it, he knew the relationship had no future.

***

Those are all good movies. Man, I hope one or more of them is on the western channel this weekend!

Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[erazmus]

I Love westerns, and right now my favorite actor of current westerns is Sam Elliot. I enjoyed the Sackett movies and everything else I've seen him do. I liked Tom Selleck in _Quigley Down Under_ which is a western gone way, way west-- to Australia! But it worked. I got to do a little online writing workshop with the guy who wrote the script...John Hill. Great teacher.
Now, High Plains Drifter isn't just one of my favorite westerns, its my favorite Ghost Story movie as well. And I have to give a shout to _Grim Prarie Tales_ with James Earl Jones. I think John Wayne's best westerns are _Red River_ (where he plays the bad guy), _The Shootist_ and _The Three Godfathers_. The latter of which also has ghosts, of a sort.
My other favorite that few people ever mention is _The Cullpepper Cattle Company_ the other Peckinpaw western worth watching.
Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:
www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php

[Jeff Stehman]

erazmus said...
I Love westerns, and right now my favorite actor of current westerns is Sam Elliot. I enjoyed the Sackett movies and everything else I've seen him do. I liked Tom Selleck in _Quigley Down Under_

Combine them with The Shadow Riders. That's a keeper, as is Quigley. I own several Eastwood westerns, but not High Plains Drifter. Although intense, it never clicked with me. Pale Rider, on the other hand, I love, as much for the character of Hull Barret as Preacher.

For sheer fun, I nominate Silverado.

--Jeff Stehman

[Daniel]

But if we are going for the best western of all time, my vote is for THE SEARCHERS...a movie Wayne loved so much that he named one of his sons for the main character.

***

Haven't seen that one -- will surely have to make that happen --- thanks for the pointer.

Daniel
www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Dave Hardy]

The thing about John Wayne is that you have to watch the movies where he was expected to act. There's a big difference between Wayne in 'Red River' or 'The Shootist' and The Duke in say, 'Chisum' or 'Rio Lobo' or a lot of other movies that are not exactly as memorable.

Stick with his top drawer performances, esp. where John Ford was directing. 'The Searchers' is an all-time favorite of mine.

Dave Hardy

Fire & Sword
Fire & Sword Blog

[Ropespor]

Okay, I got a bunch of replies to various posters, so rather than throw one huge post at y'all, I'm going to break my comments down into small ones. (Hey, can one of you 500+ post veterans tell me if that's preferrable to one long post?)

Jeff said...
I gotta go with True Grit, which also happens to be one of the few John Wayne movies I really like. (I greatly prefer the remake of Stagecoach to the original.)

Yeah, how can you not like Rooster Cogburn? Even those Wayne naysayers on the board should check this one out: It was, in fact, the only role Wayne won a Best Actor Oscar for. Being that this was after he'd been acting in scores of movies over forty years, in his acceptance speech he said something like, "If I'd known all I had to do was wear an eye patch, I would have done it a long time ago!" Which is witty,nonetheless it is true that in his Duke heyday he could not have played such a role: a grizzled old, washed-up, drunken gunfighter.
He also did fabulously in _The Shootist_, where he plays an aging gunfighter who discovers--after surviving a lifetime of guys looking to make a name for themselves by taking him out--that he is dying of cancer. Moving film--and Wayne was not really "acting" too much--he himself was dying of cancer at the time. His last film and a moving swan song.

I never saw the remake of Stagecoach. The original is your classic set-up of bringing characters from wildly diverse classes and backgrounds, people who'd ordinarilly NEVER mix, and throwing them together in a confined space (in this case, the claustrophobic confines of a stagecoach). Absolutely wonderful character acting--I laugh every time I watch it. Incidentally, Stagecoach (the original) is seminal in the history of westerns for introducing a measure of realism and forever changing the genre. Before that, westerns were typically your Tom Mix "cowboy in a white hat" fighting slews of outlaw gangs and wild whooping Indians on the warpath. This started westerns on a path toward The Wild Bunch.

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[Ropespor]

Daniel said...
Clint's ok. He's not my favorite western actor though. I am *trying* to like all those spaghetti westerns he made; I'll keep trying until I get it right

Have you tried The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly? That's probably the most entertaining, mainly due to Eli Wallach's "Ugly," a wonderful foil to Eastwood's "Good" and Lee Van Cleef's "Bad." The film is a bit overlong, but whenever Eli's on screen he steals the show.



Daniel said...
Those are all good movies. Man, I hope one or more of them is on the western channel this weekend!

Don't settle for the Western Channel edit of The Wild Bunch--this one must be seen as the unrated director's cut. Daniel, you mean to say you don't belong to Netflix?! [img]/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]

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[Ropespor]

Michael said...
I Love westerns, and right now my favorite actor of current westerns is Sam Elliot.

Yeah, Sam's great. I have no problem believing he's a cowboy. In fact, even when he's in other films--a bouncer in Roadhouse, a biker in Mask--I think of him as a cowboy. The Coen Brothers played off this persona to humorous effect casting him as "The Voice" in The Big Lebowski. Very few other actors would've worked in that role.

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[Ropespor]

Michael said...
Now, High Plains Drifter isn't just one of my favorite westerns, its my favorite Ghost Story movie as well. And I have to give a shout to _Grim Prarie Tales_ with James Earl Jones.

Yes, good shout-out to _Grim Prairie Tales_! That is a good western AND a good horror flick!

I know exactly what you mean about _High Plains Drifter_--takes the "mysterious stranger" riding in to mete out justice one step further, and makes him a literal spirit of judgment. Chris, about _Pale Rider_, that's what I meant about the pairing of these two films. It's been years since I've seen Pale Rider, but isn't the implication there that he's, if not the same character, at least the same kind of character--not a man at all but a ghost?

And if you like westerns with a supernatural element, Mike, have you seen Dwight Yoakam's 2000 flick _South of Heaven, West of Hell_? I'd explain why I mention that film, but it would give away the whole premise!

About Culpepper Cattle Company: as I recall, that film is often described as the most unremittingly honest portrayal of the old west on film. Daniel, you mentioned about how a movie like The Long Riders can mix historical accuracy with wildly inaccurate Hollywoodisms. For a movie that is straight-on, unflinching, unsentimental, check out Culpepper. And then rent a romantic comedy to balance it out. [img]/emoticons/lol.gif[/img]




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[Ropespor]

Finally, to everybody: discussing westerns with this crowd, I started thinking about the common themesshared by westerns and sword and sorcery. Both tend to focus around a hardened loner orsmall band of loners, outside the law buttypically cast as the protagonist. In both cases their mastery of their society's weapons make them virtually invincible--whether gunslinger's six-shooter or barbarian's sword--and they travel through a bleak landscape confronting either rival gunslingers, Indians, and corrupt lawmen on the one handor rival barbarians, thieves and brigands,mad sorcerers andbeasties on the other.





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[Jeff Stehman]

Nicholas said...
he Coen Brothers played off this persona to humorous effect casting him as 'The Voice' in The Big Lebowski.

I thought he was 'The Cowboy,' but IMDB lists him as 'The Stranger.' (Haven't see it since the big screen.)

Nicholas said...
It's been years since I've seen Pale Rider, but isn't the implication there that he's, if not the same character, at least the same kind of character--not a man at all but a ghost?

They are very similar in that respect, even in the way the title characters arrive and depart, but I always got the impression he's mortal in Pale Rider.

I watched The Outlaw Josey Wales earlier this week, and for the first time I recognized Doug McGrath as one of the hillbillies who tries to take Josey Wales. He's Spider in Pale Rider.

--Jeff Stehman