Yet another discussion about self publishing vs. trad route

[Gbondoni]

Another thread has degenerated into this age-olddiscussion, again, so I thought I'd make it easier to find. The history is here: http://forum.sfreader.com/default~f~12~p~2~m~87661.html.


As always, I've taken the position that some kind of gatekeeper - a publisher, agent, reviewer, or whatever - is necessary to ensure even a tiny bit of quality (as a matter of fact I now refuse to review self-published work, having had to sit through one novel that should have been shot at birth too many. It's not that I have a bias, I just refuse to waste time on unedited garbage when there's new professionally published work by Alastair Reynolds out there).


I'm one of those readers that sees the "self-published" label as a sure sign that no one else thought it was worth publishing. I may be wrong, but haven't seen much to make me think otherwise.


It has been explained to me that I'm lame. What do you think?


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[James R. Kitney]

Ok I will stick my finger into the pie here. [img]/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

I am a new author (as in I have not had anything published nor attempted before). I am in the UK. I have used a few writers websites to search for Agents that accept Fantasy MS (novels not just short stories).

I found about 4 that were actually accepting for Fantasy. I submitted to three of these. One agency said It was decent enough but was written for an audience too young for them, another said it was too old. The third was so lacking any human personality that I wouldn't have gone with them even if they had offered it.

I left the fourth on the hope that if I can get some success it may be viewed more favourably rather than 'just another unknown writer'.

When you read an agents requirements, most read as though they couldnt care less if you submit or not, and I think that if they cannot show a bit of personality to potential money makers then they have lost track of what they are trying to do.

However I can fully understand that those who are swamped with MS where 1 in 500 may be worth reading, can get a little tired, but as a person who has a life to carry on with and a job to pay the bills, I will not jump through x number of hoops to be treated like a number and insignificant.

Hence I have gone self publishing route, if people read the book and like it, then thats all that is important. Even 1 happy reader makes it worth while, and while I will never make a fortune or have a number 1 bestseller, at least I wont have to pander to people that demand the world.

This is of course just my view of Agents (a friend actually managed to TALK to one! He was told that unless the MS was recommended or the writer was already famous it was almost impossible to get an Agent) and getting a publisher without an Agent here is almost impossible...

...maybe I should have tried writing another genre?! lol

Sounds like a bit of a rant on re-read but still it does reflect the experiences I have had so far.

Sincerely and Fraternally,

James R. Kitney

Dragon Child: Book One of the Prophecies Saga
Facebook Fan Page - also latest info

[SJHigbee]

Hm... Reluctantly - very reluctantly - I have to admit that I share your prejudice. I love reading and enjoy writing reviews - but have found myself increasingly avoiding self-published books. The reason? Like you, I am finding the choice of interesting, skilful writers out there with engrossing stories far too plentiful to waste my precious time wading through another cliched story crammed with typos and basic plotting errors.

www.sjhigbee.com

[SJHigbee]

And yeah, James. I entirely take your point - your own experience pretty much mirrors my own in trying to get work published in the UK. Hence my reluctance to actually agree with Gustavo's observation. However, unfortunately the few self-published books I have read have had serious issues with basic spelling, punctuation, characterisation and pace... I think the hard truth is that no matter how promising a book is - it certainly needs at least several pairs of fresh eyes other than its creator before it is fit to see the light of day...

www.sjhigbee.com

[Gbondoni]

James, it didn't sound like a rant at all. If your readers enjoy your books, and if that's your benchmark for success, then I absolutely respect that. (If you'd like to try more agents, you might want to try: http://www.everyonewhosanyone.com/ - it's a mind-blowingly complete list of agents with sardonic commentary, and it's free).

SJ, I seem to have had a similar experience to yours. I was truly open-minded at first, and would read anything. I'd believe writers when they told me their self-published novel was 'just as good as the stuff the big houses are putting out'. Time and again, I was disappointed. Eventually, after sampling a huge amount, I just gave up. I also came to believe, very strongly, that no writer is the best judge of the quality of his own work.

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[Christopher_Heath]

If I didn't know the author (or more importantly, the author's work) I generally would not be interested in self-published material. There are a few writers whose works I'm familiar with from various anthologies that if they put out a self published collection or novel I might be interested in (and I would hope they would care enough about their work to comb through it more than a few times for typos, plot flaws, etc.). Actually, there are several on this board I find more entertaining than some of the big name authors of the same genre. But, as I said, generally, if you're not familiar with an author's work or it's their first outing and they self-publish--be very wary.

Christopher M. Heath

'Azieran: Racked Upon the Altar of Eeyuu' in Demons: A Clash of Steel by RBE
'Azieran: Bound by Virtue' reprinted in Demons: A Clash of Steel by RBE
'Azieran: Rebirth' in Abandoned Towers
'Azieran: The Crown of Roon' in Abandoned Towers
'Azieran: Ghost Crane by Sunset' in Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel by Fant. Ent.
'Azieran: Claimed by Birthright' in Return of the Sword by Rogue Blades Ent.
'Azieran: Oathbreaker's Promise' in Flashing Swords
'Azieran: The Hollow Kings' in Flashing Swords
'Azieran: Savior in a Flask' in Magic and Mechanica by Ricasso Press
'Azieran: The Travelers Four' in Black Dragon, White Dragon by Ricasso Press
'Azieran: Distilling the Essence' in Sails and Sorcery by Fantasist Enterprises

+ others

[darkbow]

Heh. Gustavo, sorry if I let the cat out of the bag on that other post. Didn't mean to turn it into the self-pubbed vs. trad-pubbed debate. Though, somewhat surprisingly, most of the chat here has been respectful, and I can't say the same for similar debates elsewhere.

Even though I'm now a self-published author, I have to go along with the prejudice against self-pubbed works. And I have to suggest that budding writes should at least spend 5 or so years trying to make it in the traditional publishing industry, if for no other reason than to get a feel for how things are done.

And I'll add this, when it comes to my self-published works, I have no doubts whatsoever that those works would be of better quality if they were traditionally published. Sounds hypocritical of me, doesn't it? My reasons for self-pubbing are listed elsewhere (on the link Gustavo provided), so I won't go into it here. But agents and editors have a tendency (though not always) to make suggestions that can make a book a better read. And, at the very least, more sets of eyes have fallen upon the manuscript and can find mistakes and offer advice.

But to me, comparing self-pubbed and trad-pubbed books is almost apples and oranges. Both sides in this debate have their points, but it really comes down to what goals the author has in the works.

Available for the Amazon Kindle
City of Rogues: Part I of the Kobalos Trilogy, epic fantasy novel
Preludes: four stories of the fantastic
SEVER: five tales of horror
Dark Side of Io (a screenplay)

Short stories
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
"Zombie Tears" upcoming at Dark Fire, "Devil and Devil Damned" at Flashes in the Dark, "The Death of Lester Williams" in the anthology Deadlines, "Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in "The Return of the Sword" anthology, "The Way the Sunlight Lies Upon Her Hair" at Every Day Fiction

For more, check out my blog at www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com</A></A>

[James R. Kitney]

'And I have to suggest that budding writes should at least spend 5 or so years trying to make it in the traditional publishing industry'

I find this argument falls flat very slightly if there are not enough 'entrances' to the trad. pub. route to last just over a year.
Like I said, I ran out of possibilities at the whopping number of 3 agents (1 not applied to 'just in case'), how can I make that last 5 years? It simply is not possible. And to keep submitting over and over again and then finally be accepted does not mean that your work is any good, just that you finally found 1 person who likes it that has the ability to make it happen.

To be honest I think the prejudice is definaitely valid but ONLY for the reason that trad. pub. gives a work the finer polish that self publish cant and this can lead to annoying points for the reader.

When I have finished exams and probably my next trip to sea (so nearing christmas or new year then!), I will take a look at that list kindly provided by Gustavo (does it hold UK Agents too?), but until then I will just bimble by knowing that at least my work is out there, even if it may not be as gleaming as some others.

Sincerely and Fraternally,

James R. Kitney

Dragon Child: Book One of the Prophecies Saga
Facebook Fan Page - also latest info

[darkbow]

James, I have to ask, why are you limiting yourself to the UK? I realize that's where you are, but so what? I'm in the U.S., and though I've never submitted to a book publisher in the UK, I have submitted (and had accepted) short stories to UK magazines. For that matter, Canada has a strong speculative fiction market.

I'm not trying to start an argument. But without knowing more, I think you're cutting yourself out of other possibilities.

Available for the Amazon Kindle
City of Rogues: Part I of the Kobalos Trilogy, epic fantasy novel
Preludes: four stories of the fantastic
SEVER: five tales of horror
Dark Side of Io (a screenplay)

Short stories
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
"Zombie Tears" upcoming at Dark Fire, "Devil and Devil Damned" at Flashes in the Dark, "The Death of Lester Williams" in the anthology Deadlines, "Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in "The Return of the Sword" anthology, "The Way the Sunlight Lies Upon Her Hair" at Every Day Fiction

For more, check out my blog at www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com</A></A>

[James R. Kitney]

The reason that I have 'limited' myself as you correctly say is due to the requirements demanded by Agents here.

Usually A4 single sided, double spaced and 12pt font for the first 3 chapters, printed on paper and sent.

Now for me that is 69 printed pages including the prologue, but not including covering letter, personaly detaisl etc. That is a sizable parcel to send and It will need postage BOTH ways and recorded as I do not want it getting lost, this is very expensive and there are also the usual hoops that are required to be jumped through lol.

If I could find a group of Agents that would take an e-mail submission, then I would be more than happy to send anywhere, however to cost of physical posting is quite expensive for that size and weight and I admit to knowing very little about the Agents in the US/Canada/wider world lol.

The second reason is that while a fair number of Agents in the UK (but still not that many) will say they accept Science Fiction, there is usually a quote that says NO Fantasy shortly after it. Now, I'm not sure whether that would follow elsewhere but if it does, again I'm looking at a very small selection of possibles to send it to, who will probably be getting a thousand and twenty eight other submissions the day they receive mine and if receiveing it from another country may think 'Why is he sending it here? can't he get it accepted in his own country?'

Obviously I would love to be proved wrong, but its juts some hurdles that I cannot jump over this side of the pond, however if I'm offered a step ladder I will accept gratefully! lol

Sincerely and Fraternally,

James R. Kitney

Dragon Child: Book One of the Prophecies Saga
Facebook Fan Page - also latest info

[Gbondoni]

Ty, you're correct - this is probably the most respectful discussion of this topic we're likely to find anywhere. Usually you get the line drawn in the sand and a lot of name-calling. That's why I love this forum.

James, the list I posted has hundreds of agencies listed (in the US, UK and Canada), many, many of which accept both science fiction and email submissions. All of them are real agents (no scammers), and there are more than enough to keep you entertained while you write your next book.

An agent won't care where the MS came from. They'll assume you did your homework, filtered the thousand or so options worldwide, and chose them because they were the best fit for your MS.

I face many of the issues you do, exacerbated by the fact that there are NO publishers or agents accepting English language work in Argentina, and sending postal queries and subs is prohibitively expensive.

Even if every single agent bounces the MS (which should be a message in itself if you tried a hundred or so), there are plenty of small presses that accept unagented work, and that will pay you for it, and put the work out in front of many people you'd never reach with your own efforts (after all, as you mentioned, most of us write in the hope that people will read our work, not to become rich and famous - although we wouuldn't complain!).

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[darkbow]

Btw, Gustavo, I don't remember if I'd pointed this out before ... but your icon is from Daniel Horne's 'Saving the Best for Last.' Quite possibly my all-time favorite piece of fantasy artwork.

Available for the Amazon Kindle
City of Rogues: Part I of the Kobalos Trilogy, epic fantasy novel
Preludes: four stories of the fantastic
SEVER: five tales of horror
Dark Side of Io (a screenplay)

Short stories
"Beneath a Persian Sun" upcoming in Carnivah House's "Infinity Swords" anthology
"Zombie Tears" upcoming at Dark Fire, "Devil and Devil Damned" at Flashes in the Dark, "The Death of Lester Williams" in the anthology Deadlines, "Deep in the Land of the Ice and Snow" in "The Return of the Sword" anthology, "The Way the Sunlight Lies Upon Her Hair" at Every Day Fiction

For more, check out my blog at www.tyjohnston.blogspot.com</A></A>

[Gbondoni]

Very cool. I had no idea. I just chose it from the menu when I signed up!

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Or my Homepage! www.gustavobondoni.com.ar

[erazmus]

I just don't buy the limited access to traditional publishing argument. There are simply too many new authors published every year in the mainstream press, the mid-sized press and the small press for this argument to hold water.

I have read perhaps three dozen self-published novels, many by friends and acquaintances. None have had the quality of even the most shoe-stringed small press offerings, though many had the potential to be much, much better than they were. Having at least one other person with a financial stake in a book be the best that it can makes a huge difference.

Self publishing is fine if you can afford a professional editor and have enough exposure to sell to a reasonable amount of people. Say, if you host a syndicated radio show or make a good living as a motivational speaker. For most of us getting someone else enthused enough about our book to publish it is a better path.

There are hundreds of publishers in the small press. Heck there are quite a few on this board. If you can't get even one of them enthused enough to take on your book, how many readers are you going to be able to convince to buy it?

You don't need an agent, but there are many good ones in the world, some of whom are hunting for new writers. New writers they can sell to major publishers, with dozens of books down the line. That's how agents make their dough, and they are worth every dime to many writers. But many others have no agent or acquire an agent only after they have established themselves and need someone to tend the back list and milk the subsidiary rights and foreign language rights. There are many publishers who do not accept unagented MS that do take queries. A good pitch can lead to a offer to submit. This takes learning how to query, and a lot of time doing so.

There are publishers that take submissions over the transom, many electronically. They are notorious for taking years to respond, but a writer can use that time to complete more Ms. Five years is hardly enough time to exhaust the possibilities for one Ms., let alone any sizable body of work. Small presses take less time and there are a lot more of them.

Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/index.html
'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com
'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com
Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

[SJHigbee]

James, have you looked at Duotrope? They have a really excellent list of publishers willing to look at sci-fi/fantasy novels, many of the smaller ones simply not interested if you have an agent or not. And I wouldn't bother with the UK market for our genre just now.

The UK publishing industry has been shrinking quite rapidly since the demise of the net book agreement with many of the independent publishers gobbled up by the huge, multi-national companies. I know of several mid-list authors who've been dropped in the last couple of years.

And the other big problem with the UK market is the prejudice against our genre. As you mention, there is a bare handful of agents who are willing to look at sci-fi/fantasy. In the US, the attitude is far more open-minded and even respected, well established publishers and agents seem quite happy to accept subs from sci-fi/fantasy authors. And as the majority now also accept electronic submissions, you don't have to trust our increasingly unreliable post or mortgage your house to send your work...

www.sjhigbee.com

[The Griot]

Well, I guess you guys will never read my books. That is unitil everybody else is reading them. Self publishing does have it's flaws, editing being a major one, but I've read some excellent books by self published writers. To be honest I had almost stopped reading sci/fi and fantasy because I got tired of reading the same thing over and over. I mean, how many stories can you write about dragons for God's sake? How much monotonous cyberpunk can one stand? Not trying to defend self publishing as the way to go but it's working out well for me. I'm not selling millions of copies, but neither are a lot of traditionally published writers. I'm finding my audience, learning the business and having a ball. Writing is fun for me this way. I don't worry about what the agent wants or what the editor wants or what's trendy that I should be writing. I'm also not conforming to someone else's concept of what good fiction is. Be honest folks, how many publishers are going seriously consider a sci/fi or fantasy novel with main black characters? Be careful before you answer that, because I know a host of black writers that have been told by publishers that if they made the main characters white their book would be published.But that'sanother issue, and another reason to self publish. To end my rant, I support my friends that take the traditional route and celebrate their success but I have no intentions of submitting any novelsto a traditional publisher anytime soon. Short stories,yes; novels, no.

[The Griot]

I sound a little defensive, don't I?

[Gbondoni]

Not defensive. I think you raise some valid points. If you're having a ball, then I, for one, applaud you. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever - it's just that as a reader, I've been burned once too often. Nothing personal.

The thing I don't quite agree with you on is that the genre is getting monotonous - I've never seen so many different novels representing different genre styles (although, yes, there will be dragon stories because readers like them) and ethnicities, lifestyle choices and other differences. Some of the top writers out there, even the millionaires, are genre writers. And Al Reynolds, pure SF writer of space opera just signed a million pound contract. Sounds like someone respects him...

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[The Griot]

I think self publishing has forced many traditional publishers out of their comfort zone. Publishing is a business and many decisions are made not because of the quality of the work but because of the perceived marketablity of the work. I've been in the corporate world for a long time and observed first hand how that works.As an R&amp;D chemistI've seen plenty good products shot downbecause management decided they weren'tsalable, just to see another company take a similar idea and make millions. It happens in publishing all the time.Self publishing gives the writer an option and a direct line to the reader. It sometimes forces the publisher and agent to consider works they otherwise wouldn't have. Truth be told no one knows what readers will want in the future. Corporate decisions are based on what people wanted in the past. Self publishing and small press is where the new ideas emerge. Self publishing does allow a lot of junk into the market, but in that junk is some real gems that would never be recognized by mainstream publishing.

I'm going to stop now. I have more books to publish.

[Gbondoni]

A few comments to that. In the first places, large publishers do take sales potential into account, but the quality is still more important. Forr example, Vampires have been selling well since Anne Rice, and yet I will guarantee that only one of ten thousand vampire novels they receive will be published. The very best of the best in a very competitive field. Same for space opera and apocalyptic fiction (another couple of hot sellers). Simple as that. And a couple of the ARCs I've received from Del Rey recently are just great things that fit no mold.

That's the biggest houses. Medium and small presses are anything but corporate, and they are willing to look at anything. They will publish a quality novel even if the subject is different and the author is new. They see hundreds of MSs, and are able to tell the good from the bad and the ugly (it is truly childish and just plain wrong to pretend that they only pick the things from authors they know - they want to publish high-quality work!). And they will pay respectable advances and work closely with the author to make the thing shine. This is easy to prove - anyone who knows about the genre in more than a superficial way can point you to dozens of first novels that are truly ground-breaking.

In short, a really good novel will always find a publisher. Quality is snapped up, even in this climate.

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[Gbondoni]

And I really don't think the large houses even notice things that are self-published. Most readers have never heard of a single self-published modern fictionauthor (remember that Paolini wasn't self-published, he was published by his family's well-established firm).


When a self published work of fiction moves onto the NYT best seller list, they might notice, but they won't change until that becomes a habit.


Readers as a groupare not reading self published work, for the reasons stated above. Some individuals may choose to do so, but there is no critical mass yet. Reading a book is a time-consuming pursuit, and they want a guarantee of quality. Self publishe work is usually a guarantee of just the opposite (again, this isn't personal, it's a generalization based on my experience in the field).


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[The Griot]

Good points. However, every seminar I attend with a prominent writer, publisher or agent the subject of self publishing comes up. It's usually brought up by the presenter, not the audience. My goals are modest so mainstream publishing is not seductive to me. I'd be lying if I said don'tthink about therecognition and inclusiveness mainstream success brings, but I think there are other ways. Maybe when my writing matures I'll think differently.

[Gbondoni]

As I said earlier, the difference in objectives is a completely valid reason to self-publish. Iove the challenge of climbing the ladder, feeling that my work is good enough to get to the top of the slush pile, and having the big names know who I am, and getting reviewed at the SF Site and SF Revu, and have a collectiion coming from an independent publisher. I've watched many of our colleagues here get up that last pair of rungs, and would love to follow in their footsteps.

I'd be interested to hear what the presenters had to say about the topic - I think it would add to the discussion (unless they were being overly politically correct and avoided saying what they really feel and only spouted vague generalities).

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[erazmus]

I think its true that the major publishers pay zero attention to self publishing and always have. Its never bitten them in the behind as even the few big hits that have come from self-published works (and someone else can figure out what they were) have been big hits only after big publishers got involved with big money. That especially is aimed at Paolini, who nobody had ever heard of until the publicity department at his publishing house made sure we had, after he was under contract and not to soon before he was on the shelves.l

If you or anybody is happy with what you're getting out of S-P, great for you! Me, I'd want somebody else doing all the grunt work getting the books made and shipped so I could concentrate on the fun stuff, the writing sure and the signing, promoting, hand shaking and pitching.

My point earlier was that its not as impossible as many S-P proponents make it out to be, to get someone behind a project. It does require a writer to accept that his initial vision may be less than perfect. Some people just do not want to believe that whole sections need serious rewriting, that paragraphs need to be cut, points of view changed, that they really are telling when they should be showing, that they wander off on a tangent unimportant to the plot. That their four hundred page Ms needs another hundred pages written, two hundred pages rewritten and two hundred pages removed entirely. Even if its a fifth draft, even if they work-shopped it, even if they've already put years into it.

Many writers go into S-P to protect their ego, not their work.

Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/index.html
'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com
'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com
Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

[Gbondoni]

erazmus said...
Many writers go into S-P to protect their ego, not their work.

So true. And that's why these discussions often become so shrill (this one is an honorable exception).

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