Yet another discussion about self publishing vs. trad route

[Jordan Lapp]

I'm sorry, but I don't know if the 'minority protags mean your book is a self-published novel' argument holds any water. Anyone ever heard of Octavia Butler? Maybe it just means you have to write better than the average novelist, but they do get published.

Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor, Every Day Fiction
First Place Winner, Writers of the Future Q3 2008
Visit my blog, Without Really Trying

[Gbondoni]

I try not to be judgemental, but every self-published writer I've ever come across seems to believe that theirs is a special case. My gut tells me that they're lying to themselves, but living so far away sometimes makes it difficult to say whether some special cases might actually BE special cases!

One thing is certain, though - white dudes who write about white dudes have no excuse for self-publishing other than a lack of the talent needed to get into real publishing.

Visitmy livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
Or my Homepage! www.gustavobondoni.com.ar

[erazmus]

Jordan,
I think it may hold water better than it first seems. Octavia Butler came out a long time ago. The follow on Black Mainstream SF authors are?

I remember when there were only a very few women Sf writers (I don't remember the first, as that was a long time ago, but I got involved with fandom early enough that most of the pioneers were still alive and a second wave was in full bloom and there were many, many others waiting in the wings.

If you credit Butler with the position corresponding to Leigh Brackett in SF, where is the Marion Zimmer Bradley, the Andre Norton, following up? Its a long way from 'Shamballa' to 'The Doomsday Book' and 'The Warrior's Apprentice'. Butler had great success but did it open any doors up for other minority writers? The great majority of writers I know of in all genres are white, and of those living and publishing now most are female. That is skewed because certain categories look to be all female. I can't think of a single Black Male writer I've heard of from the mainstream press writing genre anything. Not crime, mystery, fantasy, Science fiction, and until this conversation not horror. I'm sure exceptions abound but the point is I buy a lot of books, read widely (a lot more than your average reader, I read four hundred books a year not counting rereads). You'd think I'd of at least heard of someone.

In my town most of the bookstores are around the neighborhood of our exclusive private college or in strip malls in the tonier north part of town, which happens to be the palest neighborhoods we have. I live on the south side in the fully integrated neighborhood near the army base. We have a branch library that has more computer terminals than book racks and a dozen thrift stores with used paperbacks. Certainly seems like the people selling books don't think there's much of a market down here where the minorities live.

Just my skewed perspective.

Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/index.html
'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com
'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com
Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

[Gbondoni]

Your perspective doesn't seem all that skewed, and it might explain why there are so few minorities in mainstream publishing - it probably reflects the actual percentage of queries received. After all, the editor who receives your work doesn't know whether you come from a minority background unless you say so in your cover letter.

And I don't really know why anyone would say so (unless it is to get some kind of advantage, in which case you'll probably be disappointed). The quality of the novel should speak for itself, and no other criteria should count (in my experience so far, that is exactly what happens, but others may have had different experiences).

Visitmy livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
Or my Homepage! www.gustavobondoni.com.ar

[ghostposts]

Th only reason I can think of is if the story has a strong cultural or societal theme and the author wants readers to know he/she speaks from personal experience.

http://whisperingspirits

[The Griot]

erazmus said...
Jordan,
I think it may hold water better than it first seems. Octavia Butler came out a long time ago. The follow on Black Mainstream SF authors are?

I remember when there were only a very few women Sf writers (I don't remember the first, as that was a long time ago, but I got involved with fandom early enough that most of the pioneers were still alive and a second wave was in full bloom and there were many, many others waiting in the wings.

If you credit Butler with the position corresponding to Leigh Brackett in SF, where is the Marion Zimmer Bradley, the Andre Norton, following up? Its a long way from "Shamballa" to "The Doomsday Book" and "The Warrior's Apprentice". Butler had great success but did it open any doors up for other minority writers? The great majority of writers I know of in all genres are white, and of those living and publishing now most are female. That is skewed because certain categories look to be all female. I can't think of a single Black Male writer I've heard of from the mainstream press writing genre anything. Not crime, mystery, fantasy, Science fiction, and until this conversation not horror. I'm sure exceptions abound but the point is I buy a lot of books, read widely (a lot more than your average reader, I read four hundred books a year not counting rereads). You'd think I'd of at least heard of someone.

In my town most of the bookstores are around the neighborhood of our exclusive private college or in strip malls in the tonier north part of town, which happens to be the palest neighborhoods we have. I live on the south side in the fully integrated neighborhood near the army base. We have a branch library that has more computer terminals than book racks and a dozen thrift stores with used paperbacks. Certainly seems like the people selling books don't think there's much of a market down here where the minorities live.

Just my skewed perspective.

Mike




Black Male Mainstream Writers
Science Fiction: Minister Faust (http://ministerfaust.blogspot.com/) Steve Barnes (http://www.lifewrite.com/) Tobias Bucknell (http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/)
Fantasy: David Anthony Durham (http://www.davidanthonydurham.com/)
Crime/Mystery/Science Fiction: Walter Mosley (http://www.waltermosley.com/)

Enjoy!

[erazmus]

Griot,
Thanks, I will.

Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/index.html
'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com
'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com
Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

[The Griot]

Thought I'd throw some more fuel on the fire. I went to a book signing for R.A. Salvatore last night (Oct. 19, 2009). I picked up his latest book for my son and as he was signing it we had a little conversation. I told him I was an aspiring writer and that I was self-publishing. He put down his pen and said five years ago he would have advised against it, but now he thinks its a good way to get recognition. He asked if I was selling it online and wished me luck, as all us writers do for each other.


There's seems to be a divide on the opinion of self publishing; most writers I speak with, mainstream published and otherwise are generally for it for variouis reasons; agents and publishers are usually against it for various reasons.

[erazmus]

Recognition, as in building a name people will respond too. Its something every author needs to do and self publishing is one way. I suppose some of my opposition stems from attitudes set when I was younger and things were different. The technology of publishing has changed, and that does change the paradigm as well.

I have had bad experiences with self-published writers. But if you are going to, or as in your case have, self publish you should use it as a tool to build your career. I note in your interview with Charles Saunders you state you have no need or desire to 'write for a living' you have a good job you like. That is excellent but so do a lot of well known writers, it doesn't really come into play except you have no need to tie yourself in contractual knots where all you do is write to deadlines. It doesn't change what you can do with your writing.

Use your self published works to build a following, get a reputation, that is great. If you can. The stigma of every writer who self publishes and sucks works against you. I know its odd that the association by published authors with the writers of every failed piece of crap ever put out in mass market doesn't do the same, but it doesn't. Still its not insurmountable. Having overcome the sales resistance of your readers you will make a bigger impression when the read and like your stuff. They will remember you, even if they might not have had your book been published by someone else.

Of course, recognizing your name and build your reputation would be even easier if you added a sig block with your name to your posts here. I don't get anything useful Googling your handle, I knew griot meant storyteller already. (You don't get anything useful on mine either).

Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/index.html
'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' 'Characters in Flight'(forthcoming)in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' 'One Dark Night'in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com
'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com
Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

[Gbondoni]

Heh, Griot. Touch?, I guess.

I still believe that you get all the same benefits and none of the drawbacks from a small press as you would from a self-published work, but I, too, am totally in favor of getting your name out there. And I really hope it works out for you!

The writers I've been in contact with are dead set against self publishing, but they are by no means a comprehensive list, so it might just be a coincidence.

Visitmy livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
Or my Homepage! www.gustavobondoni.com.ar

[The Griot]

I hear what you guys are saying. Self publishing brings its own baggage. Periodically I sit down an evaluate my progress and the question always comes up; should I keep self publishing, or should I send out the manuscripts and get in the game. I think I tell a good story and I think with good editing (the Achilles Heel of self publishing) I'd have some really good stuff. Then I take out my notes, weigh the pros and cons and get back to my self publishing. The bottom line is writing is hard work no matter which way you pursue it. I think if you're honest about your strengths and weakness, work hard to improve your craft and bust your @ss promoting your work self publishing can be rewarding. It's just as hard going the mainstream route; most published writers I've talked to took at least five years of submissions to just to get published, then took a few years afterwards to become successful writers, if they became successful at all. As far as the amount of self published crap out there, I think the numbers are just as high in the mainstream market. The difference is we never see it, the agents and editors do.

And I do need to do a better job on the internet promoting. I suck at it. I'm better at the face to face stuff. I hope to change that next year. Thanks for tolerating me, folks.

[Gbondoni]

No need to thank us - the nice thing about this forum is the fact that lots of different philosophies are mixed together. I haven't seen anything yet that would make me self-publish (I also have geography issues - being in Argentina means that I need to have a publisher with a physical presence in English-speaking markets to do the sales side of things).

I doubt anything I'd say will make you change your mind either - but still, other than time (which you can use to write more stuff) what would you lose in trying to get a trad publisher to look at your work (even a small press gives you immediate credibility)? I think it's a no-risk way to explore a huge makret that you are currently not tapping. And if they say no, you already have the self-publishing experience to go on as before.

Visitmy livejournal! http://bondo-ba.livejournal.com/
Or my Homepage! www.gustavobondoni.com.ar

[The Griot]

Good point, Gustavo. It's something to consider. It would have to be something I felt resonated with the current marketplace demand. I'm not convinced Sword and Soul does, which is the main reason I self publish. I think this is more involved. If I came up with an idea that was more mainstream I would be more willing to take the conventional route with that project...maybe.

[Lyn]

Griot, you are in a perfect place with Sword and Soul genre stories - the general market doesn't know you exist yet! And the market craves new trends. You and your colleagues are at the forefront of a wave, but that wave is often self-forming. Sit down with Charles, Carole, and others who are writing what you write and form your own publishing venture. Then promote your asterisk off. Be the first and be the best. You can do it.

Lyn from ResAliens Zine, Blog, & Reviews
You can Follow, Friend, and/or Shop!

[The Griot]

Positve encouragement! Thanks, Lyn. I'll take that any day. That's why I named my company MVmedia. Publishing is in the near future. Charles and I are working on a Sword and Soul Anthology for next year. We've got some good writers and artistscontributing. I'll share more as we get closer.

[Window Bar]

My friends who have self-published fall into two categories:

1) Those who self-publish just to 'get it out there.'
They tend to sell very books.

2) Those who self-publish because they already have a marketing system in place, and self-publishing is simply an adjunct to that system. Within this category are those who conduct workshops, who teach, or who have a captive audience via some non-publishing venue.
They sell books and make good money.

I'm certain there are rule-breakers who do not fall within these two categories, but I haven't met them yet.

-- WB

'We Read for Light.'

[lin]

SF is a niche in itself. 'Minority On The Cover SF', shall we call it, is nichier yet.
And SP works best in niche markets.
Trouble is, they have to be an identified niche, so to speak. You're doing steampunk, there are websites, conventions, etc.
With segment SF, it's harder to find the slot. (And a question I'd wonder about, is 'minority SF' even a niche? As opposed to 'Black SF', 'Asian SF', 'Chicano SF', 'Eskimo SF' etc? There are several possibilities:
--Minorities are used to being under-represented and SF fans are more interested in ideas than characters so they don't care what color the characters are.
--There is a definite niche that can support sales in specific areas: Black, Hispanic, etc.
--There are SF readers out there who go for anything other than whiteboy covers because they want to see something different.

I suspect you're aware of these, but a few I know of
http://www.blacksciencefictionsociety.com/main/

http://blackauthors.ning.com/group/h...58:Topic:28789

Also, there's a ning group called Bean Soup Society that is oriented more towards politics and humor, but you might fit in
http://beansouptimes.ning.com/

LINTON ROBINSON.com</font>

MAKE YOUR OWN BOOK PROMO VIDEOS FOR FREE</font>

[lin]

I don't fit either of those categories, Window Bar. I have self-published for years to make money. And did pretty well at it.
And I know a dozen people who did exactly the same thing and have done very well: on guy makes well into six figures a year doing one book.

None of us had any particular 'platform' before publishing. (Though I've kind of acheived that status by now in certain niches.)

I'm talking about poetry and non-fiction, primarily. (Any poet who does readings, by the way is nuts not to self-publish a book to sell on the spot, but I had a line with several authors all over town by the time I wrapped it up...kind of like Lawrence Ferlinghetti)

But can this be done with novels. Absolutely. Especially if you write romance or gay erotica or zombies or some such.

But it can also be done with fiction. (Think somebody could sell a SF mystery set at a StarTrek convention? Wait, I might keep that idea)

I'm working with some guys on publishing novels on a big scale...and big risk. I'll let you know how it works out.


BTW, I never heard of Octavia Butler.
But I HAVE heard of Charlie Pride and nevertheless think that trying to attain success in Nashville is not the best bet for young Black singers.

LINTON ROBINSON.com</font>

MAKE YOUR OWN BOOK PROMO VIDEOS FOR FREE</font>

[The Griot]

lin said...

BTW, I never heard of Octavia Butler.

You should read a few books by her. She's a great writer. I'm not as big a fan of hers as some of my fellow black sci/fi writers, but her work is good. Try Wildseed; It was the first book I read by her.


MVmedia, LLC
Sword and Soul, Fantasy and Science Fiction
www.mvmediaatl.com
mv_media@bellsouth.net

[Lyn]

Reading Beloved by Toni Morrison right now. Definitely speculative fiction (a ghost story, really) but found in the literary section, of course. Publishers don't want to admit that writers like LeGuin and other notables are actually SF/F/Spec writers, lol. Boy, did I get off topic.

Lyn from ResAliens Zine, Blog, & Reviews
You can Follow, Friend, and/or Shop!

[The Griot]

I'm totally sold on self-publishing. I'm enjoying the process and the challenge of producing a good book. It used to be important to me for other people to accept it because I'm doing it, but now I don't care. As long as the reader enjoys the results I'm happy. I do think that living in a large metropolitan area gives me advantages that other writers may not have. I also think that anyone who decides to pursue self publishing should be dedicated to producing a quality book. Each book I produce should be better than the previous book on all levels. I'm not saying I'll never attempt to do a mainstream project, but I'll always self publish first.





MVmedia, LLC
Sword and Soul, Fantasy and Science Fiction
www.mvmediaatl.com
mv_media@bellsouth.net

[lin]

Well said, my man.

LINTON ROBINSON.com</font>

MAKE YOUR OWN BOOK PROMO VIDEOS FOR FREE</font>

[Citiria]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Print on Demand - many prestigious publishers now use it as a way of keeping a low-selling book in print. I just bought one, in fact: "Alamein to Zem Zem" (Keith Douglas) - a POD by Faber & Faber.

Ebook sales are growing FAST and I believe will dominate the industry within five years.

Regarding the difficult issue of self-published books, yes, 99% are crap. Unfortunately it seems that 99% of new authors simply are unable to realise that their spelling, syntax, and grammar are crap, let alone character development and story arc! That's what editors are for.