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Thread: A different, negative take on Dune (Herbert), review/criticism

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    Default A different, negative take on Dune (Herbert), review/criticism

    I didn't like the Dune book and here are my reasons why.

    It should be noted that I'm rating this book without at all taking into account that it is 44 years old -- had I done so this review would be different; thus, hardcore Dune fans, please bear with me if you intend to read this, since I don't give credit to the age of this work. This book/this series is often recommended to newcomers to the science fiction genre who are way too young to have grown up with this (like me). As such this is a brutal review with no regard to how groundbreaking this work may have been and with no regard to the nostalgia I'm sure most of the fans have.

    This review might contain spoilers, but will not reveal much of the story itself, if anything.

    Having just finished the four novels set in the Hyperion universe and the single short story in the same setting I was shocked that something so great (the Hyperion series) could have existed for so long without myself knowing about it. Having grown up as very young with the 'Dune 2' real time strategy game on the PC which I have fond memories of I later on always had a strong suspicion that the Dune books must be truly great -- but for some reason I never got around to reading the books despite reading a lot of other fiction. Finally I bought all the books in the Dune series -- I was THAT certain this series must be so good I would want to buy all of them anyway; or so I'd been told, having been told things such as, 'So you thought Hyperion was good? You should read Dune.'.

    I went into the book with enthusiasm, a truly open mind and embraced every idea when I started reading and didn't care if things didn't make sense at first. I have read the first and second Dune book now and will present my thoughts.

    I was deeply disappointed. For starters I didn't like the tone and style of writing, but I didn't like Hyperion immediately either. Although despite my flexibility I found the writing style superfluous and needlessly complex at times, sometimes I got the feeling the author employed as many foreign words as possible as well as original terminology, only to make the reader feel in awe of the work. But I will admit this is at best a subjective triviality of mine, and I'm sure others have no issues -- the real objective criticism has yet to come.

    Dune has little or nothing to do with science fiction and technology, even from a 'soft' science fiction point of view. It has everything to do with politics, religion, adventure and what I'd call magic -- the abilities of e.g. the protagonists to manipulate their own bodies and see into the future with no explanation whatsoever or even vague references to physics.
    This is hard to grasp. It is even told that the magic spice can 'bend space', presumably as implied by General Relativity (GR). It is even harder to accept that in a high tech, interstellar fairing civilization computers are outlawed and knives are extremely effective weapons.

    On Amazon.com, in the review section, it is often stated 'The universe that Frank Herbert creates here is a humanistic one, almost a medieval renaissance world.', which I find to be true, yet it seems that it is always neglected to mention how little this notion has to do with science fiction.

    The author seems to employ cheap plot devices to elude the burden of having to speculate on the technology of the future. E.g. all computers are illegal due to a 'jihad' that banned them a long time ago. Apparently digital (or analog) guidance computers are not needed to navigate nor control the massive interstellar spacecraft that are present in the novel but never discussed in detail. Instead they are navigated using one of the many magic forces of the 'spice' in addition to so-called 'navigators'. The most sad thing is that exactly how this (and basically everything else) works is not even mentioned as far as I can recall.

    To imagine that strong AI is forbidden is possible, but to imagine that not only weak AI (expert systems) is illegal, but that ALL computers altogether are illegal? Give me a break. Supposedly 'Ornithopters' are used as aircraft on Dune, with no explanation as to whythis is cheaper and more effective than regular aircraft -- however, are we meant to believe these aircraft are operated with analog electronics? Is all communication analog too?

    'JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as 'Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.''

    Since computers per se are never mentioned in the book, as far as I can recall, I can only interpret the Butlerian Jihad as outlawing ALL computers -- which is essentially exactly what is stated in the quoted text. Are we really meant to believe that an interstellar civilization operates a vast network of huge, massive spacecraft of all kids, without using any form of digital computers? All sensors, attitude control, thrusters, life support systems, GN&C, communication, command and data handling are all analog, and somehow fed through a mutated creature that is this 'navigator', who uses a magical spice to fold the very fabric of spacetime itself? And none of this needs to be even remotely explained or even mentioned how actually works?

    The problem is not that this is too fantastical or too abstract or incredible (e.g. bending spacetime), the problem is, that this is only a product of the many possibilities that the spice brings into the Dune universe, not a product of engineering marvel, mathematics, chemistry nor physics, or any combination thereof -- it is just a magical construct that is kept secretive, magical, and left at that.
    Herbert decides not to speculate into the uncertain and risky future of certain concepts, e.g. computers, hence he 'cannot miss' and hence his fans regard his work as timeless and epic. I don't consider it that way, I consider it a cheap excuse for not daring to speculate into the future of computer technology. I would like to hear how it is imagined a massive *interstellar spacecraft* can possibly be thought feasible without any form of computer.
    How does the great spacecraft navigate? What are its subsystems? What propulsion technology does it employ? How are all these subsystems managed? Are any parameters at all even hinted at? No, it is all either 'explained' (mentioned) by the spice, sometimes explicitly but more often than not, merely implicitly.
    The weapon systems regarded in the book are dry at best, the notion of knives being the ideal weapon of choice borders on sheer insanity -- I have no problem with shields, but what has always happened from a historical point of view is as follows, as the shields get better, so does the weapons -- thus there is an 'arms race' between the shield/armour technology and the weapon technology; this is the real past, this is the present, and this is likely the future; why didn't the author merely extrapolate from that? While the Herbert's solution with fusion is clever, it ruins all the fun of weapon systems, which is a common neat trait to science fiction. Who wants to read about knife fighting, especially in THE greatest science fiction novel of all time? I'm sure the Crysknife is a distinctive mark of the Dune universe that the fans love, but as for a reality check -- from a science fiction point of view -- it is plain wrong; again, try fantasy.
    In short, the Butlerian Jihad is to computers what the shield is to weapon systems, it allows Herbert to elude the burden of speculation.

    Other works of science fiction (especially soft sci.fi.) often refrain from explaining the inner workings of arbitrary technology too, but in those cases the underlying concepts or ideas that are implied (or stated explicitly) are often familiar ones that are easy to imagine -- the reader can fill in the voids and gaps on his/her own, however with Dune I'm unable to do this. It seems impossible.

    In all Dune seems more like a desert fantasy universe with the technology so distant and so remote that it is felt as if it is not even there at all. The ideas and concepts seem more magical than scientific. It seems all too easy for me to replace the word spice and melange with magic or mana.

    Due to the age of the work I obviously expected a space opera/soft science fiction -- little talk about technology and science, but as I've tried to explain there is less than that, there is so little science in the book that fantasy is almost a better term.

    The point is that the *science* has nothing to do with the story; the story could just as well have been without any of the alleged science, set in medieval times with a fantasy theme, and it would be a much better book at that. Why couldn't Dune have taken place in a fantasy land instead? If it did, I would enjoy it a lot more, even if I don't like the fantasy genre very much.
    Although if you can live with what I've briefly mentioned so far, the rest of the book must be said to be great, but there are plenty of other reviews that deal with what the book is really about. I'm just disappointed from a *science fiction* point of view.

    As I have yet to read far into the series, I will give it the benefit of the doubt, perhaps the issues I've mentioned matures with time.

    To avoid angry replies I will point out (despite being somewhat repetitive) the following:

    Dune is a fantastic novel, it was groundbreaking in a lot of regards at its time; but I do not account for this, this is criticism and a review meant for a new audience in regard as to what to expect in terms of science fiction, as compared to the modern hard science fiction books available. I have also only barely touched upon the good aspects of the book, or not mentioned them at all -- which there are many of -- I feel they are already covered well enough in other reviews.

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    Posix,
    I've never been able to read Dune, the language was just too mendacious for me. Having a huge number of reading choices and a limited lifespan, I opted not to pursue it beyond the initial hundred pages I give any highly recommended book.

    But knives are an effective weapon, always have been and should remain so in any reasonably foreseeable time frame. Technology really doesn't come up with many choices to make the wedge ineffective and still allow human skin to skin contact. Living in a shell of armor--material or some postulated force--at all times is the only cure I can think of. they are just to basic an implement to get around.

    Mike

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  3. #3

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    erazmus said...
    Posix,
    I've never been able to read Dune, the language was just too mendacious for me. Having a huge number of reading choices and a limited lifespan, I opted not to pursue it beyond the initial hundred pages I give any highly recommended book.

    But knives are an effective weapon, always have been and should remain so in any reasonably foreseeable time frame. Technology really doesn't come up with many choices to make the wedge ineffective and still allow human skin to skin contact. Living in a shell of armor--material or some postulated force--at all times is the only cure I can think of. they are just to basic an implement to get around.

    Mike
    I must strongly disagree.

    If you mean that [sophisticated] melee weapons are likely to be applicable in the foreseeable time frame, then I might agree.

    Although I will dispute the term 'foreseeable time frame' in this context, the time required to go from present day spaceflight to interstellar space flight is, literally, astronomical.

    If you literally mean a normal knife, then I would advice you to reconsider.

    Premise: I think it is fair to say that interstellar spaceflight is many hundred years away before even remotely economically feasible, perhaps thousands.

    As of 2009 there exists a wealth of research devoted to artificial organs and limbs, see e.g. the development of the Jarvik and the current Abiocor which will soon see a new revision in the exciting Abiocor II.
    For artificial limbs see e.g. the current very exciting TMR technique (Targeted Muscle Reinnervation), or see e.g. the Shadow Robot Company.
    For exoskeletons, see research conducted and prototypes produced as early as 1986. There is also a lot of ongoing research in this field, e.g. in the USA and Japan.
    Brain Computer Interfaces are also rapidly evolving in sophistication and have long been done as proof of concept, even for vision, there even exists BCI devices (obviously of the non-invasive kind) that can be bought as consumer products, see e.g. OCZ Neural Impulse Actuator.
    See also the TED talk of Juan Enriquez regarding how technology in general will change mankind.

    I could easily have written a small book about this, but the point is that this is only the tip of the iceberg of things to come, and even that is an understatement. Why am I telling you this? Because it implies how humans are likely to exist in hundreds of years from now.

    This technology and these concepts that I mention have only existed for ~50 years or less depending on the concept in question, they are all growing in sophistication at an exponential rate. You might argue that 'I don't accept being transformed into a machine', but it has already begun, like I said, see e.g. Abiocor and TMR, how much resistance is there against that? Even if there is resistance, the resistance will be weakened for each generation, by enough iterations in this manner it will become more and more the norm and thus more and more accepted. That much is obvious.

    Now having attempted to argue and counter the most obvious ways to attack my perspective I will try state my real point. Extrapolating from this, by the time mankind is able to wield interstellar spacecraft with ease, it is obvious that sophisticated electromechanical exoskeletons would be worn by anyone in a military situation at that time, intelligent particle weapons and energy weapons would also be the norm, to say the least. Perhaps more important; even those not in a military situation would not be normal humans as imagined today, they would obviously be a hybrid between an electromechanical machine and a biological entity.

    Wielding a standard steel knife against a futuristic soldier wearing a motorized, lightweight, self-healing, fusion-powered exoskeleton, who has a lightweight endoskeleton of composite nanotube bones, servomotors and EAPs for joints and muscles that can literally crush steel and skin that does not bleed, would be like shooting a freight train train with a BB gun, or a cave man attempting to stab a hole in an M1 battle tank, no offence meant.

  4. #4

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    And if that knife, or some ultra high-speed vibrating, nano-edged version of it is wielded by a futuristic soldier wearing a motorized, lightweight, self-healing, fusion-powered exoskeleton, who has a lightweight endoskeleton of composite nanotube bones, servomotors and EAPs for joints and muscles that can literally crush steel?
    The other questions is, outside of combat, will that soldier be wearing that suit to dinner? Or on a date? I don't forsee any end of homocide by hand-weilded sharp pointed hard foreign object as long as the bulk of us are still soft and easily perforated. It is our most basic tool, and has been since Ook the Ugly carved his initials in the belly of his rival with a sliver of obsidian.

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    MichaelEhart said...
    And if that knife, or some ultra high-speed vibrating, nano-edged version of it is wielded by a futuristic soldier wearing a motorized, lightweight, self-healing, fusion-powered exoskeleton, who has a lightweight endoskeleton of composite nanotube bones, servomotors and EAPs for joints and muscles that can literally crush steel?
    The other questions is, outside of combat, will that soldier be wearing that suit to dinner? Or on a date? I don't forsee any end of homocide by hand-weilded sharp pointed hard foreign object as long as the bulk of us are still soft and easily perforated. It is our most basic tool, and has been since Ook the Ugly carved his initials in the belly of his rival with a sliver of obsidian.
    Obviously such protection would not be worn at any given time, but this is not the point either. Even without the protection the regular steel knife would be useless as the target in question is not a human -- given the weapon being something else than an old fashioned steel knife that again obviously completely changes everything; I did state that I would agree if the notion is melee weapons in general, and not a regular steel knife, I can obviously imagine effective futuristic melee weapons.

    But again, the context here is knives being an effective weapon, while we can discuss semantics all day I will want to press that by 'effective weapon' one does not mean something that can harm with success someone who is not in a combat situation -- literally any tool can do that. It is pretty much implied the situation is a combat scenario, with a dedicated adversary, as this is the premise for the Dune book which spawned this. [img]/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

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    Which as I stated, I did not get to.

    Mike

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  7. #7

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    Hmm.


    I've read Dune about 3 times yet have never read further into the series. I really liked Dune but the rest of the series never ever captivated me.


    Your take on Dune seems pretty easy to agree with--ecspecially since you make such a point of being specific about hard-SF aspects lacking (and even the soft-SF to varying degrees). I mean I loved the book--but I don't like hard(er) SF so the reason I liked it was because of story telling not because I dig reading hypothetical articles in Popular Science magazine (meant literally, not as a dig). I mean if I get cornered by some guy in a bar at a convention who wants to drone on about how lightsabers can't work I often feel like saying "get a clue, genius." (but that's just me)


    I have a friend who writes softer SF. She pointed out that the huge hit Time Traveller's Wife is pretty muchSF but the critics who love it bend themselves into contortions NOT to call it that because most lit crits don't care much for SF.


    Dune is a great book set in a far unimaginable future. Using you crit I could see it sliding from SF to Sf. That is from Science Fiction to Science fantasy. From a story telling point it doesn't matter--from a rigid classification mindset bordering on a spectruum disorder it means *everything*.


    So I think you're review is spot on.


    However there is another possiblity...it is possible that centuries of centuries in the future things will happen which make all the science of 15-minutes in the future seem like a curious experiment with obsidian chips as spear-heads. That the tech will be so different and so utterly transformative that we haven't invented the understanding for it--or even the langauge.


    If we are to Dune what Ook the Ugly is to us then how can we expect caveman story tellers to have a concept of a steam engine let alone quantum mechanics. We can't--so Herbert doesn't bother--you've been challenged to expand your vision of a future so *future-ey* that it is inconceivable to you. One that appears as magic and manna driven as a Stealth Fighter to Ook.


    In order for Ook to understand the B-2 he'd have to evolve new linguistic skills and attend school. Then to speculate on the propulsion systems and weaponry he'd need more advanced school, etc, etc.


    So I think simply dismissing Dune as being only fantasy is maybe short changing the ability of SF writers to write an unimaginable/un-understand-able future.


    However...when you do it the way Herbert did you excise everything that makes the sub-genre of hard SF fun for its fans. But you shouldn't try to so rigididly define the largergenre of SF. That seems limiting to a body of work already in desperate search of more book buying fans.


    As an aside--the idea that a quasi religious or mystical movement would push a luddite viewpoint because making machines in the "image of man" offends the spiritual seems, well, the *least* fantastic aspect of Herbert's SF.




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  8. #8

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    Well, there's another element in the discussion which hasn't been opened up, which is that all mediocre science fiction (and some great science fiction) seems to be tech-driven, making Dune stand out because the concepts were different from its contemporaries, and from nearly anything else you might find on the shelf today.

    Interestingly enough, the original concept was much less magical and more of a straight adventure story of the kind that were never reprinted.

    The richness of the language, and the layered nature of the world (Dune was constructed somewhat like Middle Earth, with various levels of draft, and a colossal back-story which was only hinted at in the final text) make it less 'entertaining', its true. But the same can be said of War and Peace. It certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea, though.

    The rest of the series makes the role of the different factions a lot clearer - Herbert explores genetics in a very interesting way. I think if he'd written it today, there STILL wouldn't be any computers in it, because of the back-story concerning the Butlerian Jihad. For something from the same era with a computer in it, just read 2001, which I have always felt is much weaker than Dune (at least in book form - the movies are a COMPLETELY different matter!!!).

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    I love Dune. It's the first book that comes to mind when someone asks me about my favorite book. The complexity of the plot and the lurking back stories is what made it great for me. It's not a hard science fiction read, but I consider it a masterpiece. I've read it at least three times and I'm always blow away. Guess I didn't contribute much to this discussion except my fanboy zeal for Dune. (You should read the Dosadi Experiment and The Whipping Star by Herbert. Those will really freak you out.)
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    MichaelEhart said...
    And if that knife, or some ultra high-speed vibrating, nano-edged version of it is wielded by a futuristic soldier wearing a motorized, lightweight, self-healing, fusion-powered exoskeleton, who has a lightweight endoskeleton of composite nanotube bones, servomotors and EAPs for joints and muscles that can literally crush steel?
    The other questions is, outside of combat, will that soldier be wearing that suit to dinner? Or on a date? I don't forsee any end of homocide by hand-weilded sharp pointed hard foreign object as long as the bulk of us are still soft and easily perforated. It is our most basic tool, and has been since Ook the Ugly carved his initials in the belly of his rival with a sliver of obsidian.
    As we say here in Texas, never bring a knife to a High-energy particle-blaster fight.
    [img]/emoticons/lol.gif[/img]

    Even today when guns are cheap and efficient knives get used in many places, eg Britain (guns are illegal) or Rwanda (not enough AK-47s for spur-of-the-moment genocide).
    Given the parameters Herbert sets up (use of shields & lasers causes nuclear explosions), knives seem like a good option. Trouble is, to some readers it comes across as contrived. For Posix, very, very contrived.

    That never bothered me though. I doted on Dune as a teen. The sequels not so much. I guess Herbert's epic scope drew me in.

    To be fair I've never been to attracted to hard-SF per se. These days I go looking for Leigh Brackett or Barrington Bayley. Bayley loved fantastic science, but his metaphysics was spot on, not mention little things like characterization, plot, pacing...

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  11. #11

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    Talking about anachrostic weapons in SF, wasn't it in Forever War where everyone was reduced to using clubs because the anti-ballistic (and I guess laser) armor had evolved to such a degree that it was more efficent to try and blundgeon someone to death than shoot 'em up?


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    nathan said...
    Talking about anachrostic weapons in SF, wasn't it in Forever War where everyone was reduced to using clubs because the anti-ballistic (and I guess laser) armor had evolved to such a degree that it was more efficent to try and blundgeon someone to death than shoot 'em up?
    Yes, I recall that too. Haldeman is a Vietnam vet. He has some pretty wild stories about going on missions stoned.

    Moving back to the pulps, de Camp made a point of slagging REH for having his characters fight with swords in the El Borak & Kirby O'Donnell stories. REH did prefer the dramatic nature of sword fights, perhaps at the expense of strict realism. The problem with de Camp's thesis is that it doesn't strictly match reality. I read the memoir of a British general who commanded troops in the 1919 Anglo-Afghan War. While the British had airplanes and machine guns, they still had to clear Afghan positions with bayonet and kukri. The Afghans would often use suppressive fire on a British position to let men with swords & khyber knives get close enough to charge. So yeah...

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  13. #13

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    Somebody said...

    But knives are an effective weapon, always have been and should remain so in any reasonably foreseeable time frame. Technology really doesn't come up with many choices to make the wedge ineffective and still allow human skin to skin contact. Living in a shell of armor--material or some postulated force--at all times is the only cure I can think of. they are just to basic an implement to get around.

    Mike
    Not to mention I seem to remember that in the Dune universe technologically-generated shields aren't a good idea because they attract sandworms...

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    I've heard this argument of fantasy versus hard science fiction many times. There are those who want to throw a fantasy label on anything that's not hard science fiction. But I could reverse that argument, in a way, and throw a fantasy label on all hard science fiction. Why? Because it's made up fiction. It's invented nonsense. It's a fantasy of the author, and nothing short of make believe. If it becomes reality later, so be it, but who can say that a world like Dune might not exist someday? I don't understand this attitude of wanting science fiction to be so ultra realistic (to me, boring), as if to say: My fiction is more 'real' than your fiction. If I want real, I'll read a science text book. Simply because the author does not explain how something works (lightsabers, for example) doesn't mean it's not possible. I believe most anything is possible in this universe. Science fiction is fiction that involves advanced technology that we don't currently possess. Dune falls firmly into that definition. It may contain fantasy elements (I feel it does, in fact), but it's certainly science fiction overall.


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    I have to admit I'm sympathetic to your view Rob. That doesn't mean we can "argue" someone into agreeing with us, of course, as it's subjective enjoyment of reading material, but I agree.


    This the way I think of Science "Fantasy": Suppose a neanderthal (not even a nice cro-magnon but an honest to goodness Gieco knuckle-dragger) campfireyarn spinnerwanted to tell a story.


    Let's say the story he wants to create is The Hunt For Red October.


    How would he make it "possible" for his audience. He doesn't even have the proper language to understand the large sweep ideas that make jet fighters, sonar, nuclear submarines, nuclear missiles, a political system of communism, the reality of the Soviets, ditto things for the U.S., launch codes, etc etc etc. His story would seem like impossible fantasy to his audience. He wouldn't be able to tell the story in a "realistic" way no matter how analytical or well educated he was. "People living inmonsters under the water" WHAT?!? Yog is one crazy fantasy writing fool.


    Now the time span between them and thus is what? 20-10 thousand years.


    Ergo if we write a story set in a future 10-20 thousands years in the future we to future humans what cavemen are to us. Given the expotential rate at which science and information and technology is unfolding a simple millenium might render us cavemen, or even only a couple of hundred years.


    Lightsabers and Dune are as possible as nuculear subs to a neanderthal. Of course we don't have the language or knowledge to give a tech-manual on such stuff. To our future us our science is still rubbing sticks together to get fire.


    But, on the otherhand, if what you enjoy is hard SF then you're not going to like how you spent your money. And that's fair.
    Trying to maintain there's somekind of a hierarchy of worthiness in the genre however...

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    "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews

    "I promise that you will not FOR ONE SECOND be bored during one of my movies. You won't learn shit about the human condition, or feel a collective connection with the brotherhood of man. But if you give me $10, I will**** an explosion while a Slayer song plays."

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    I've encountered people who have questioned the science in the few science fiction stories I've written by saying things like "You know, nanobots would fail when exposed to that much radiation." And I say to myself: No, they would not! These are my fictional nanobots, in my fictional future, and I assure you these nanobots can in fact withstand that amount of radiation. Simply because I can't explain why in detailed scientific terms doesn't make it fantasy anymore than if I offered some explanation in said terms--it's still made up fiction. Do I care how the warp coil in Star Trek works? No, I don't. In fact, it's better if it's not revealed, because in time it could come to look silly.

    I suspect a lot of hard science fiction may end up being laughed at in the future as we learn more about the universe. Our egos are vast, but we are just getting started and know so very little about universe at this point. As a race, we haven't even expanded beyond our little mud ball yet. At least the "soft" science fiction--failing to offer explanations that can later be proven ridiculous--has a chance of standing the test of time.

    And there may be some things in this universe that science can never explain. Would a story that features them be fantasy, if we came to know that these things existed? Simply because we can't yetexplain in scientific terms how matter came to exist, or what it truly is,is all the matter in the universe nothing more than fantasy? If so, then every "hard" science fiction story that features matter is actually fantasy. What I'm getting at here is the logic that separates hard science fiction from soft science fiction is flawed and doesn't hold up undercareful examination.

    I respect the opinion others have on this issue. I?m merely offering my own.

    I think you gave a good example, Nathan, of what I'm talking about.





    My website, with published fiction,is here.

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    nathan said...

    Trying to maintain there's somekind of a hierarchy of worthiness in the genre however...
    Of course there is a hierarchy. There is the stuff I and my friends like, at the top, and the stuff those effete snob lit faeries/knuckle dragging action boors like, at the other end.

    Mike

    Michael D. Turner
    'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
    www.baen.com
    'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
    www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

    'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

    www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
    'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
    www.bigpulp.com/index.html
    'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' 'Characters in Flight'(forthcoming)in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
    'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' 'One Dark Night'in Every Day Fiction
    www.everydayfiction.com
    'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
    flashingswords.sfreader.com
    Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
    www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

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    BEWARE THE 300!!!





    (of course attrition has 'em whittled down a goodly bit so time is on our side--but much like Palpatine they have their acoloytes, oh yes)

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    "Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews

    "I promise that you will not FOR ONE SECOND be bored during one of my movies. You won't learn shit about the human condition, or feel a collective connection with the brotherhood of man. But if you give me $10, I will**** an explosion while a Slayer song plays."

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    erazmus said...


    nathan said...

    Trying to maintain there's somekind of a hierarchy of worthiness in the genre however...
    Of course there is a hierarchy. There is the stuff I and my friends like, at the top, and the stuff those effete snob lit faeries/knuckle dragging action boors like, at the other end.

    Mike


    The fact is the reader doesn't care what genre, subgenre, hard, soft, fantasy, the story is, as long as it's good.


    MVmedia, LLC
    Sword and Soul, Fantasy and Science Fiction
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    Milton Davis
    MVmedia, LLC
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    The Griot said...

    [img]/emoticons/lol.gif[/img] The fact is the reader doesn't care what genre, subgenre, hard, soft, fantasy, the story is, as long as it's good.
    That is true, but only after they've found you. The whole genre/subgenre thing is so the people who found books similar to yours to be good will find your work next to one they are already looking for. Otherwise bookstores would just file everything by author's last name and title.

    Mike

    Michael D. Turner
    'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
    www.baen.com
    'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
    www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

    'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

    www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
    'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
    www.bigpulp.com/index.html
    'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' 'Characters in Flight'(forthcoming)in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
    'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' 'One Dark Night'in Every Day Fiction
    www.everydayfiction.com
    'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
    flashingswords.sfreader.com
    Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
    www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

  21. #21

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    I used to live around the corner from Herbert in Seattle and thought some might enjoy an insight he mentioned about Dune.

    The whole concept of Arakis, a world so arid that water is measured by the drop and tears are a luxury, was inspired by Herbert's hiking in the Olympic Peninsula rain forest, the wettest place in the continental US.

    LINTON ROBINSON.com</font>

    MAKE YOUR OWN BOOK PROMO VIDEOS FOR FREE</font>

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    Whoa! The opening review of this thread is an H-Bomb. There's too much of it to deal with unless I ramp up the megatonnage myself, but here are some hand grenades:

    Who cares if there are holes in the science? That's allowed in fantasy. That's why we create different worlds. Imagine Tolkien's chagrin if told that eagles can't carry passengers.

    Who cares about made-up words? If a common word had existed for a gom-jabbar (accurate spelling here is not guaranteed), maybe Herbert would have used it. But let's take it seriously and get Tolkien to re-name Ents as "Those big treelike thingies that walk and talk."

    Too much adventure? Politics? Religion? Sorry. I guess Herbert was unaware that those subjects bore all of us.

    That much said, the sequel novels were not the masterpieces the original one was. He had pretty much done a tour de force, and should have moved along.

    --WB

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