Keep the F-Word Vulgar

[Lyn]

I'm starting a 'Save the F-Word' Campaign.

Lyn from ResAliens Zine, Blog, & Reviews
You can Follow, Friend, and/or Shop!

[Jaqhama]

The word has been part of lower class terminology in the UK since the 70's.
Ted Lewis was probably the first author to write a novel where the F word and the C word was used on every other page.
But he wrote books about London gangland criminals and that's how they all talked.
Jack's return home. (Filmed as Get Carter, Michael Caine's best role.) Jack Carter's Law. Jack carter and the Mafia pigeon.
Ted was also the bloke credited with introducing 'crime noir' to the world.
I noticed the difference in using the F word and the C word when I was in the USA in 2005. Riding around, mingling with bikers at Sturgis, I noticed that everyone used the F word but no was using the C word. They seem quite shocked when I did use it.
Funny...in Oz and the Uk you hear it a lot.
To us M*****F****R just sounds stupid.
Blokes from all walks of life use the F and C word in Oz and the Uk now.
I'd say I see the F word more in novels written by American's than anyone else.
Mainly to make the lead character(s) seem tough I suppose.
The toughest blokes I've ever met have all been Brits or Afrikaners. And most of them don't have to use the F word to illustrate the point.
In fact the majority of Afrikaners would never swear in front of a woman, unlike the Brits who do.
It's interesting you haven't actually spelt the word out in full on your blog.
It's frequently heard on TV here in shows by about 8.30 pm.
Young kids use it all the time.
As you say people on forums put it about on a regular basis.
Not writing the word in full on your blog suggests that you're worried about using the full spelling in case some people get offended.
I think most of us are past being offended by f**k.
The only reason I'm not using it in full here is because I know this is a family website and poor Kelly would have a heart attack if she read it here. Then she'd be forced to delete the post also.
What about we discusss the C word now?
Also popular in UK and Aussie culture but strangely lacking in American daily terminology and written novels...a thesis on the subject puts forward the idea that....

The Jaqzone:
http://kevin-jaqhama-lumley.blogspot.com/
http://alfwarz.blogspot.com/

[ghostposts]

I noticed the F word was getting boring a while back, but it's so versatile. You can slip it in anywhere.

Don't care for the c word; I feel it's like reducing a human to one body part, but then so is the D word. Don't use either one much, but then most of my writing isn't geared toward real cussing.

http://whisperingspirits

[Jaqhama]

I should say that over the years I have had to politely ask a few blokes to not swear in front of the ladies I happened to with at the time.
Most notably an english gent, in his 60's with his wife, in a dining room in the Blue Mountains. He was telling us how he'd heard Aussie men using the F and C word in public and was extolling upon that.
I told him that was all well and good but now he was sitting at our table and he needed to rein himself in and mind his language. That maybe his wife didn't mind but my lady and I did.
Looked like he'd swallowed a pineapple for a second. Then spent the rest of the night apologising. And the next morning. I was ready to throttle him to shut him up.
A classic case of the englishman abroad.
And they wonder why the French don't like them.

I use the F word a fair bit in my military SF stories.
Although I changed F*cK to F*K like I changed phone to fone.
I've used both words a lot in my UK thriller stories.
The main characters are similar to the Essex Boys...not to be confused with chavs or Essex Girls...and only someone from the UK is going to understand that last anology. LOL.

The Jaqzone:
http://kevin-jaqhama-lumley.blogspot.com/
http://alfwarz.blogspot.com/

[Lyn]

Thanks for your comments. I believe in taboos - they serve an important purpose in our culture. So when the f-word is no longer taboo (and you're right by noting on my blog that I never use it) it moves something even further 'down the ladder' up to the surface to replace it. This eventually leads to a general debasing of society, imo. We're in the midst of that cultural shift as we speak.

Lyn from ResAliens Zine, Blog, & Reviews
You can Follow, Friend, and/or Shop!

[Jared Evers]

I agree with your points. I'm not offended when I see or hear profanity, but I do believe there's a time and place for it. There are some situations where strong language is called for, and when used in those situations it's very effective. However, if said profanities are thrown about casually, they lose their power and meaning. With much of today's youth, the F word is frequently being used as nothing more than a placeholder word, which just strikes me as laziness. Maybe it's just the cranky old man part of me speaking, but I prefer for people to put a bit of thought into conversations with me, and rampant use of profanities tells me that they're not. But that tends to be an unpopular opinion these days.

Scion of the Immortals -- http://scionoftheimmortals.blogspot.com/
A weekly fantasy serial at Abandoned Towers

[Mike Griffiths]

In general I have always thought that swearing should be avoided. Particularly in Fantasy and Science Fiction.


Sometimes though it seems stupid too. Here comes that anti-hero that killed my wife, "youbig jerk, I'm going to smash you hard!" or "You piece of&^$^&I'm going to#&%& kick your*&#!" Which sounds more real? I tend to lean more towards characters in current times wanting to swear more than say Conan or Buck Rogers types.


I also tend to think that horror is a little looserand swears are more appropraite. When you see that ghoul eating your arm, while you probably won't be too happy.


I resently finished a lit novel when the Protaginist runs into some Meth dealers. I try to keep the swears in this book to a minimum, but there are times were it is the only thing that fits.


In general, I think all authors are somewhat unrealistic about swears and use them about 1% as much as they would really be used by people in the same situation. I mean if I almost trip on my cat in the dark as few choice words will be coming out, I could only imagine the stream that would occur if I saw a glowing zombie in the hallway instead.


MDG











If anyone needs to reach me my email is Alexbone17@aol.com

[Jaqhama]

Lyn said...
Thanks for your comments. I believe in taboos - they serve an important purpose in our culture. So when the f-word is no longer taboo (and you're right by noting on my blog that I never use it) it moves something even further 'down the ladder' up to the surface to replace it. This eventually leads to a general debasing of society, imo. We're in the midst of that cultural shift as we speak.

Working on the fact that the F word is heard on TV shows and in movies on an almost constant basis...and that it's now used in public by politicians (Our new Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, used it in public recently in a Palimentry meeting no less, and refused to apologise for doing so. Good onya Kev. About time we had a PM who's not afraid to say what he thinks) And is also used by all sorts of people, young and old, from all walks of life...I would have said that the F word is no longer taboo at all?

And surely people have been using vulgar words since the days of the Romans? The only difference being they didn't have tv and movies to include the words usage?

The upper classes in the last two hundred years have probably not used profanity to a great extent (in public anyway) but the lower classes certainly have.
One only has to read old chapbooks, re-printed from Victorian times to realise that. Plenty of bad language and dirty sexual jokes in them.
The only difference I see with the F word today is that the upper classes use it as much as the lower classes.
I don't think society is slowly debasing.
I think society is rapidly becoming uncontrolled...due more to parents not being able to discipline their children and the police not being able to whack an offender over the head with a nightstick or give a teenager a swift kick up the arse.
A lot of people (especailly younger folk) seem to feel they can do anything they want with little or no comeback from either their parents, the police or a judge. And this attitude follows them into later life.
For example: If I had told a police officer (or any adult) to F off when I was a kid in the UK back in the 70's he would have clipped me upside the head, dragged me back to my parents and they would have given me a big kick up the bum.
I don't see the F word is the problem. The problem is kids/adults can talk back to the police and anyone else they want without fear of any consequences.
Might be different in the USA. But in the UK and Oz that's how it is.

Cheers: Jaq.

The Jaqzone:
http://kevin-jaqhama-lumley.blogspot.com/
http://alfwarz.blogspot.com/

[Lyn]

Good thoughts, Jaq. No, the f-word is not the problem, it's symptomatic of the problem. And what you describe as uncontrolled behavior is what I called debasement, so I think we're on the same page, but semantically parsing our vocabulary. Not a big deal. My point was that there is a place for shock, but when nothing is shocking then something will rise to the occasion - and we might not be happy with what that is. But as for the f-word being taboo, you gave an example earlier that it still is for you and your lady friend. So, yes it is and should be, imo. On a recent SNL a guest host let it slip and they edited it for the west coast. So definitely in the US it is not the norm for public broadcasting. That's what makes those blooper youtubes so funny! [img]/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

Lyn from ResAliens Zine, Blog, & Reviews
You can Follow, Friend, and/or Shop!

[Jordan Lapp]

I just don't understand your logic here, Lyn.

You want people to stop using the F word so that it keeps its power in a literary sense. But... what good is that power if nobody uses it???

Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor, Every Day Fiction
First Place Winner, Writers of the Future Q3 2008
Visit my blog, Without Really Trying

[Lyn]

lol, yeah a bit tongue-in-cheek, but the idea is to use it rarely, I'm not necessarily advocating eliminating it, but my point - I guess it got lost in my attempt at humor on my blog - was that, like anything that is overused, it loses its effectiveness. Quick un-thought-through example might be the word exquisite. If an author describes everything in the story as exquisite - and this is the driving descriptor which is picked up in society and is used by everyone everywhere - then exquisite loses its meaning, its punch. 'Save' the word, don't use it.

Lyn from ResAliens Zine, Blog, & Reviews
You can Follow, Friend, and/or Shop!

[Jordan Lapp]

Ah, I get it. I view the F word as a bit of a grunt. There are much classier ways of expressing disappointment or even describing the act of copulation in your fiction.

Jordan Lapp
Managing Editor, Every Day Fiction
First Place Winner, Writers of the Future Q3 2008
Visit my blog, Without Really Trying

[Jaqhama]

And let us say for the sake of debate here, that the F word becomes rendered unforceful by its constant usage...what would replace it?

The Jaqzone:
http://kevin-jaqhama-lumley.blogspot.com/
http://alfwarz.blogspot.com/

[Keralen]

Bring back some of the old ones like d**t and n**s?


I overhear conversations where every other word starts with F. I think it's a symptom of sheer lack of imagination.


OTOH, I just submitted a story to IGMS where I agonized for 15 minutes trying to find a way to rephrase an angry retort that just really, really required the bomb. Now the retort sounds lame, but at least it's not R-rated.

[The Griot]

What the f*** are y'all talking about?



MVmedia, LLC
Sword and Soul, Fantasy and Science Fiction
www.mvmediaatl.com
mv_media@bellsouth.net

[erazmus]

Thank You Griot!

Look, milieu and character account for 90% of appropriate usage. Your character can swear when she stumbles over the cat in the dark without you, the writer, accurately reporting her exact verbiage. Mostly I would no more use an accurate rendering of dialog of the average factory workforce than I would of the average high school gossip circle. I'd have to delete most of the 'Ums' and 'Ahhs' of the later and ninety percent of the 'f**ks' and 'F**kings' in the former, just for clarity's sake if nothing else.

Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/index.html
'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' 'Characters in Flight'(forthcoming)in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' 'One Dark Night'in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com
'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com
Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

[RLCopple]

I think when it comes to writing, it's the old 'less is more' saying. Anything overused loses its punch.

But I think it also has to be character dependent. I only hear the F bomb every once in a while, and have gone months, even years not hearing anyone say it. Very few of my friends use it, at least in my presence. And I do know many who would be offended if I were to let go with a string of such words. Not that I would, I've never used them myself. 'Darn' and 'Blast it all,' might be exclamations I'd use, maybe because that's what I heard my dad use. And, believe it or not, there are many people like me out there as well.

What that means is that excessive use of the F word will ensure that you'll alienate a section of your potential audience. Not having in there isn't so likely to alienate those are who don't care, as long as you keep it realistic enough. They'll be alienated for one of two reasons. 1. They are offended at it or simply grates on their sense of propriety, and/or 2., because they rarely hear it, it makes the character sound fake and unreal, just as much as someone used to hearing it will say it makes the characters sound more real. But its presence will be noticed while its absence isn't nearly as likely to be noticed.

I can take an occasional use of it in a movie or book or story, but constant use makes watching/reading painful. I can't enjoy the story because its constant use is like shooting off fireworks while someone is trying to say something to me. It's way too distracting.

But there are characters that by their nature would tend to use that and other cuss words. And depicting them without it would be unrealistic. But there again, unlike real dialog, less is more. And the 'shock' or punch of the word used at the right time can have a force that it wouldn't have if you made it totally realistic. The rest of the time you can make it clear he/she is using it without him/her having to actually say it. Even short hand like, 'What the....' allows the reader to fill in the blank with what they think would be natural, without having to actually write it.

But I figure for myself, I simply want to maintain the biggest possible audience. So aside from not being in my experience to use it or hear it used much, the bigger issue for me is to avoid turning away a segment of my readers when from my vantage point, I don't have a real reason to risk that.

But those are decisions each writer makes. I'm not saying everyone should adopt my pov. After all, the more popular restaurants in the area like the Salt Lick and Blue Bonnet Cafe here in Marble Falls, don't take credit card. Cash or local check. And they don't have to, because they aren't hurting for business. If you're selling and getting read, and it's natural to you, then go for it.

But, yes, less is more. Even for those comfortable with it and want to show a character who is base like that.

R. L. Copple

www.rlcopple.com
www.raygunradio.com

Infinite Realities available at Amazon.com
Transforming Realities available at Amazon.com

[erazmus]

Then there are just some certain characters who are by their nature vulgar. Think Joe Pesci's character in 'Goodfellas', or Jack Nicholson's in 'The Last detail' (to use two movie examples) that use this common vulgarity as a signature. Their extravagant use of it informs the viewer of so much about them in such a short time. It does have its uses, though much more so in crime fiction and horror than fantasy and science fiction.

It isn't required even in crime fiction and horror, of course. But it is a tool which, like all tools, can and should be used when it is the right tool for the job.

Mike

Michael D. Turner
'Psyched Up' in _Turn the other Chick_-ed. E. Friesner-Baen books
www.baen.com
'Dutchman Rescue'in Continuum SF #6
www.continuumsciencefiction.com/orders.htm

'An Incident at Black Tongue Tavern' in _Bash Down the Door and Slice Open the Badguy_ from Fantasist Enterprises:

www.fantasistent.com/books/anthologies/BASH.php
'Pink Plastic Flamingos''What Smitty Saw' 'Elvis's Space Alien Lovechild' 'Two Ravens''Rejection' (forthcoming) in Big Pulp
www.bigpulp.com/index.html
'Stains''Two ravens''Job Security' 'Yeti Yet' 'Characters in Flight'(forthcoming)in Tales of the Talisman 3-1 www.zianet.com/hadrosaur/index.html
'Morning Coffee''Happy Landings''Teller of Tales''Silver Shells''I'm tired of Bombs, and my dog is dead' 'One Dark Night'in Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com
'The Jewel Below' 'Mo the Mountain' in Flashing Swords
flashingswords.sfreader.com
Read 'Silver Shells' In The Best of Every Day Fiction
www.everydayfiction.com/features/the-best-of-every-day-fiction-2008/

[ghostposts]

I'm with you, Mike.

I think curse words should be used like any other word: to enhance the story.
If it doesn't meet your needs as a writer, don't. If the character, situation, ect. call for it, curse.

http://whisperingspirits

[Richard H. Fay]

Apparently, at times, stellar mainstream poetry is poetry heavily laden with the F-word. (Or so it would seem.)

In my opinion, after a while, after hearing the F-word (or variations of it) for the fourteenth time, it loses some of it's impact. Even my prudish ears grow numb to its use. Then I have to ask myself "what's the point of all this F-this and F-that?".

I'm with those that say the F-word, and other cursing, loses its punch with overuse.

In my opinion, using such things simply for their "shock value" is a rather adolescent way of getting attention. There may be better, more creative and artistically mature, ways of getting attention.

If it's needed, use it. If the situation requires its use, use it. If there is no need, if the situation doesn't require it, then I would suggest questioning its use.

[Scott M. Sandridge]

But...

The F-word isn't "Vulgar," it's "Anglo-".

*ducks and runs* ;p

[Lyn McConchie]

Over the 20+ books I've sold and the 250+ stories, I've VERY rarely used obscenity. If I need some I often invent a word and I don't think that most situations require someone using a string of rude words unless it illuminates the character, or makes a strong point. But back in the early 1990s I discovered that one person's swearword can be another's description. I'd written a short story and offered it to MZB's fantasy magazine. A note came back from Marion saying she liked it and it would be accepted- if I would please remove the obscenity. I gaped at the letter. Obscenity? I was aware that the magazine sold to teenagers and I don't normally use obscenities anyhow. I read my story (What Happy Ending) read it again, couldn't find a single rude word...read it again - and a vague dim memory surfaced like a breaching whale. AH HA! I changed the word, and the story sold. What word? Well, it's one that is very commonly used in New Zealand as a precise description, you see it all the time in the classified adverts, in show reports, in newspaper stories here, but I gather in America it isn't used that way. What is it - bitch. Here it is a normal, usual, description of a female dog. She's a bitch. And I had used it exactly that way in my story, as a clear required description, the dog in question WAS a bitch. What are obscenities? Anything you think they are I guess.

[Window Bar]

Why is everybody so upset about the F-word? I agree, it strikes terror into faint hearts, but I say it anyway.

"Family, family, family, family, family."

There, I feel better.

[Ropespor]

A personal pet peeve of mine, though, is when people substitute a near-homonym: like, for example, "fudge!" Look, it's being used in the same context, to express the same emotion, and is rendering the substituted word in my mind--but dropping the "ck" and substituting the (apparently cleaner) letter combination "dge" is somehow keeping my mind from being further corrupted? Hmm?

[JoshBrown]

The "f-word" s not always vulgar.

I think the "f-word" can sometimes be used for humor.

or something else.

Sometimes different tools can be be used to accomplish different tasks.

Never limit yourself.