Is it worth it?

[erazmus]

Nathan brought up a good point.

Are all markets worth placing in? Are there certain types of markets that just don't add anything to or even detract from your reputation as a writer when your work appears in them?

Rob K brought up the Black Matrix/John Scalzi controversy. Its a good example to start with.

Does having work appear in low paying markets devalue your work? Do you appear desperate for publication? I would think it depends on your work but maybe I'm naive. Do I get judged more by the ToC's I'm on than the content of the stories in those pubs?

I've never worried over much about this before. I am really just getting a sense of where my writing is coming from, what defines me as a writer, and never thought overmuch about where I've placed defining me. My writing is a smorgasbord of imagery lifted from late-night UHF television in the late 60's and early 70's, filled with animated lawn ornaments, giant robots fighting city crushing monsters, twist-ending quickies and bad sci-fi plots, over the top creature feature stuff. In other words its a reflection of my childhood, filled with the iconic imagery of my own formative years.

That much is evident from reading any of my stories. Am I somehow hurt if that reading is done in the electric pages of Black Matrix instead of somewhere more lucrative or better thought of? Or, since I've never submitted to Black Matrix, what about the markets I do place in? Are they hurting me?

I'm one of the definitive writers for Big Pulp. I say that without modesty, which I don't have anyway, but with honesty as I've had more work appear there than any other writer. Does that hurt my chances with editors of better paying markets? Does it turn off potential readers? Is it limiting my growth as a writer?

Or is it just providing me with a place to build the seed of the audience I so do want to have for my work? I can see how it might be hampering me if I was going in some directions, most those of being a "serious writer" what ever that is, but I'm trying to be an "entertaining writer". A fun read, a goof with oomph. I'm a product of campy, weird, eccentric, nerdish proclivities and I don't much expect to rise above them but rather seek to elevate them to entertainment once again.

I think anyplace lending me a platform to tell my stories is a good thing, but maybe some disagree. What do you guys think?

Mike

[nathan]

It’s a tough question and one than leads to PC gaffes in the answering—so it’s more fun.

Let’s assume we’re writers. As writers we can’t NOT write, it’s hardwired. Since were writing it would be great if someone, somewhere is reading us.

From a career path choice it seems that all markets have value. The value is either mostly intrinsic or mostly extrinsic .
One well written novel publicized even moderately by a big house marketing wing can make years spent in small venues “gaining readers” one fan at a time completely supliferious . You would have been better off just writing and subbing the novel.

Markets that offer only intrinsic rewards are good enough, in and of themselves, a} early in your career when you need some kind, any kind, of feedback to keep your dream alive or b} if you’re not really after a “career” per se.

Extrinsic rewards—exposure on a national level, money, awards, prestige are, well, they’re own reward.

If you score a big extrinsic reward then more and more smaller intrinsic rewards are going to grow increasingly insignificant to you—unless that was primary motivation in the first place.

Having said that, venues that offer big extrinsic rewards are often ran by people who are incredibly under-whelmed by publishing credits not “in their league” it seems.

[Rob K]

All I can say is check author bios of professional magazines. See what publication credits are listed. That will give you a clue as to what you should list when you submit to these magazines--if anything. If you're seeing certain magazines listed repeatedly, there's a reason for that. If you don't see others listed, there's a reason for that as well. If certain writers never seem to make it into certain professional magazines but are published frequently in smaller, paying magazines, there's a reason for that also.

After talking to professional writers and reading editor blogs, I have learned one thing: You have the right to remain silent. If you give up that right, your credit list can, and in some cases will, be used against you.

Now, about the value and...er, devalue of writing. I place great value on where I sell my novels, but I haven't done that with short stories. The reason why is because (right or wrong) I don't feel that short stories make or break you. Also, they don't take nearly as much time to write as novels. However, lately I've paused to consider that, and I'm trying to place greater value on my short fiction. The problem is that some types of stories (like classic fantasy or sword and sorcery) are not being picked up by most of the professional magazines. This is reality, and the stories that are published in the professional magazines prove it. All we have to do is go read the last five issues of Strange Horizons to see what's being picked up. Simple as can be. So some of my stories are likely to be submitted to lower paying magazines, if the pros won't take them. It's not devaluing my work. Rather, it's simply finding an existing market for my work.

[Rob K]

I'm not speaking to anyone in particular with the above statements, just to writers in general. Of course, I'm still fairly new to short fiction, so it's important for me to point out the limitations of my experience when I post advice.

[The Griot]

I've always heard that publishers and agents check out the smaller markets for potential talent. I would assume there are particular magazines that have a reputation discovering good writers. But everybody has to start somewhere.

[nathan]

Just got an email titled "from writer to author" from a person I'm on the Oregon Writers Network with. She just sold her first story ever. She sold it to F&SF. She aimed high, she scored high. For all I know (I do know she was taught the pyramid system of subbing) it was the first place she subbed it.

What she didn't do was sell herself short and aim for an easy kill because she had no "resume". That's an important component.

In his latest mythbusters I posted here, Dean Wesley Smith talks about the several year 'expirement' he did where he kept a mental tally based on convention conversations with editors and agents about what they read outside of their slush. The answer was a universal 'not damn much.' Time.

I think the best bet for potential talent to get noticed by said editors would be by putting stories/novels right in front of their face on their desks than subbing to small places hoping to get discovered like a 1950's starlet working in a hollywood ice cream palor.

I bet big house editors have some situational awareness of Big Award winners (Nebula, Hugo, etc) that has overlap with their genre, but I wouldn't bet big.

This of course predisposes that one is writing to catch the attention of the publishers in the first place and not for other (equally valid) reasons.

EDIT: I should note I wrote this reply not as somekind of "refute" to Groit but rather to champion the merits of the pyramid system as it applies to someone with a career type mindset.

[SilviaMG]

"Are all markets worth placing in? Are there certain types of markets that just don't add anything to or even detract from your reputation as a writer when your work appears in them?"

Yep. As a personal bias, I will often submit to markets that have a good design or nice covers. I wouldn't submit to some markets because they just look/behave ... unprofessional, would be the word.

"Does having work appear in low paying markets devalue your work?"

Depends on the market. Shimmer is not pro but gets reviewed by a number of people. My honorable mention in Rich Horton's Best of the Year came from a low paying market (Reflection's Edge).

"Do you appear desperate for publication? I would think it depends on your work but maybe I'm naive."

When slush comes over to Innsmouth Free Press I can smell the whiff of desperation. That's the person who cites 150 credits in tiny markets and then summarizes the story for me. No need. Your 2 best credits (or no credits!) suffice.

"Do I get judged more by the ToC's I'm on than the content of the stories in those pubs?"

Context matters. I do certainly notice those writers who have pro credits in the slush, but read everything.

"Does that hurt my chances with editors of better paying markets? Does it turn off potential readers? Is it limiting my growth as a writer?"

I think the only way you can hurt your chances of better paying markets is if you don't submit to them and are happy to remain subbing to only lower paying pubs. I do think it limits your professional growth because obviously you are not going to get professional pay. Now your personal growth, I don't know. Maybe you are a hobbyist and are not interested in Asimov's?

Plus: is this a niche market? Does it offer the potential for more readers/fans? If someone is subbing to a Phillipines Genre Mag, it's probably a small mag. Yet it's niche and may get read by the kind of audience I want.

"I think anyplace lending me a platform to tell my stories is a good thing, but maybe some disagree. What do you guys think?"

I don't think anyplace is good. I judge markets on three factors: money, exposure and prestige, and personal feelings. The first two probably go tied hand in hand. High-paying publications like Asimov's and SF&F usually have exposure and prestige. But a small publication like Lady's Rosebud may bring me that same prestige.

Finally, there's personal feelings. There are markets I identify with or just love at a visceral level. I like Expanded Horizons because it published many international writers and stories in unusual settings. I am an international writer who writes things in unusual settings.

I love the design of Shimmer, and sub to them in part because it is a small, nice publication.

I sub to Futurismic because, once again, I like the idea of the pub (near future sci-fi).

So "anyplace" is not a good place for me.

I want to switch over to the role of publisher of a tiny zine, which is Innsmouth Free Press, and say that we have published or are publishing Nick Mamatas, Mary Robinette Kowal, David Conyers, Charles R. Saunders (who sent a very nice re-print) and Ekaterina Sedia. All of whom are pro writers as defined by SFWA. And a host of other people, lesser known but also with pro and semi-pro credits.

At the same time, we have bought stuff from at least two or three people who had no prior publication credits. And others who had no genre credits.

Just because we are a small zine doesn't mean we don't publish quality people, who write great stuff. And I would hope, if someone subs to us, that they realize we are a quality market. Not just any market. But a nice, little, lovable horror market. I don't want to be "anymarket." I want to be a market that makes people nod and say: "Yep. Innsmouth Free Press puts out consistently interesting stuff. I want to be in it!"

Does this make sense?

[crystalwizard]

Nathan brought up a good point.

Are all markets worth placing in?

no

And there are plenty of markets that cause your reputation to plummet if your work is associated with them.

[Rob K]

Can somebody tell me which markets will cause a writer's rep to take a nose dive? It's not always easy to figure out which magazines are on the scorned list.

[Rob K]

What?! No one has posted a list yet? I'm shocked!

[crystalwizard]

Okay, Rob, here's a partial list:

If you're writing children's stories and your name is suddenly associated with a porno publication, your reputation's going to suffer

Conversely, if you're an author who wants to sell to tough guy pubs, and you wind up being associated with girly mags, your reputation isn't going to be doing so hot for a while.

No one's going to post a list, because the list is specific to the author in question and the reputation that the author wants to have.

[erazmus]

I've been inconsistent about what credits I list on cover letters. Sometimes I put up a small list, usually I mention one or two newer ones, sometimes I don't mention any. A lot depends on the guidelines to the publication I'm submitting too. Some don't mention it, some go on to lengths about what to tell them.

I no longer mention a few ever. Continuum SF doesn't get mentioned unless I'm offering a reprint of "Dutchman Rescue", first printed there, because the magazine's look doesn't impress me and because they never paid me. I seldom mention Amazing Journeys because, even though it was a great magazine, it hasn't been around for a while. So again, only if "Two Ravens" is being offered for reprint do I mention it.

Of course, both those stories have been reprinted multiple times. And you have to say where a story first appeared. But I'm now wondering about the other credits I sometimes list. I have enough now to pick and choose a little. But how do you tailor a credit list for a market like "The Magazine of Bizarro Fiction"? And how am I supposed to keep track of who likes and respects which 'lesser' market?

Mike

[Rob K]

Crystalwizard,

I wasn't thinking along those lines, but true enough! I actually didn't expect anyone to list specific magazines (I myself wouldn't), but you never know.

Mike,

That's why I feel a writer should check author bios in magazines. I think it shows what writers with what backgrounds are getting in. If I don't see Biff's Space Arena listed anywhere, you can bet I'm not going to list it when I submit there. Here's my honest feeling--when in doubt, don't list it. A lot of pro mags take on new writers with no credit lists. I think the chance is indeed better with a blank slate, unless you really have something to boast about. It seems strange. We work so hard to build up our credits, and then we find it's sometimes better to shy away from them.

However, I have found through experimentation that you don't need to shy away from your credit list at all when submitting novels. In fact, a larger credit list sometimes earns you more respect. My respect level definitely increased as my credit list grew with my novel submissions. But I suppose it depends on the editor or agent, and actually, I received my novel re-write request from a book publisher when I only had one credit to boast of. So...who the heck knows? That's why I vary my strategies sometimes. That's all we can do. You just never know what's going to work in this game.

[tchernabyelo]

In my cover letters/emails, I list the pro markets I've sold to, and maybe the closest in "feel" to the market I'm subbing to. Maximum of four venues, usually three.

I don't know if I've yet sent work to any publicatoin that would actually "harm" my reputation, but I have definitely sent to (and sold to) markets that are, frankly, irrelevant in the grander scheme of things. I am trying to up the number of pro submissions I make, and cut out (hopefully entirely) the smaller markets that might offer me a few bucks but to all intents and purposes are little different than dropping a copy of my story down a well. Really, there are markets out there that get readers in the low double digits - and most if not all of those readers are aspiring writers.

I think the days of publishers and agents trawling the "lesser" markets looking for emerging talent are mostly over, though it is possible to be noticed if you happen to be lucky - my understanding is that Scott Lynch got his 7-book offer based largely on information posted on his blog.

And there's an interesting side point. Most of us consider that we shouldn't publish on our blog (because you are throwing your rights away) but frankly many blogs have higher readership than some markets do. I certainly intend to put free fiction on my website (when I get it going) from time to time, to drive traffic or promote other work or whatever, and I honestly think that may be as or more effective than subbing to small obscure markets that never do any promotion of their own.

[crystalwizard]

However, I have found through experimentation that you don't need to shy away from your credit list at all when submitting novels. In fact, a larger credit list sometimes earns you more respect.

Rob, i have to ask who you think you're getting respect from?

I can tell you that when someone subs a book (or short story) to me, and their credits list is half a page, my respect for them drops through the floor and my interest in their writing takes a nosedive as well. It's almost like they're screaming "you don't need to read this, it's perfect, publish it as is, look how special I am!"

I feel, at that point, like I'm talking to a used car salesman.

You might not be getting negative feedback to your face, but have you spoken to any of the people you sub to personally and asked if they have a problem with the long credits list, and whether they actually pay attention to it or not?

[Rob K]

Rob, i have to ask who you think you're getting respect from?

I can tell you that when someone subs a book (or short story) to me, and their credits list is half a page, my respect for them drops through the floor and my interest in their writing takes a nosedive as well. It's almost like they're screaming "you don't need to read this, it's perfect, publish it as is, look how special I am!"

I feel, at that point, like I'm talking to a used car salesman.

You might not be getting negative feedback to your face, but have you spoken to any of the people you sub to personally and asked if they have a problem with the long credits list, and whether they actually pay attention to it or not?

I don't do half a page, just a brief paragraph. Something like this: My short fiction has appeared in this magazine, this magazine, this magazine, and this magazine. It lets the editor know you can get paid for your writing, which is saying something. Is it absolutely necessary? No, but it shows you have some background and that you can sell your work. I hear you on the screaming paragraph bit and all that, which is why I try to keep it tight and professional. But if I you have background, you want to show some of it, right? However, in short fiction that can run you into trouble if you list the wrong stuff. With novels, if you keep it tight and professional, I think it gives you an edge. I could be wrong, though. It would be nice if I knew how every editor thought.

[crystalwizard]

But if you have background, you want to show some of it, right?

you might, but those of us on this side of the desk don't want it.

if you're famous, we don't need your background.
If you're not, we don't care about your background.

we only need your background when we're ready to put your bio into the book we're publishing or when we're creating marketing materials for that book.

[Rob K]

you might, but those of us on this side of the desk don't want it.

if you're famous, we don't need your background.
If you're not, we don't care about your background.

we only need your background when we're ready to put your bio into the book we're publishing or when we're creating marketing materials for that book.

I can't argue with your preferences as an editor, certainly. However, I have noted that some book publishing guidelines ask that you list any qualifications you might have. I should think if the editors were turned off by credits/experience they would have that advice dropped from the guidelines. And editors that are turned off by a writer listing some of his accomplishments should at least mention that in the guidelines--as it would be doing a great service to writers who aren't aware of that. Naturally, most writers are going to list at least some of what they've worked hard to achieve, such as sales to paying markets, unless told to do otherwise.

[crystalwizard]

I have noted that some book publishing guidelines ask that you list any qualifications you might have

That's the point, Rob.

For places that ask for specifics, give specifics.

For everyone else keep it short if you list at all. A lot of time and energy goes into writing the writer's guidelines page. If people want your credits along with your query, they'll ask for them.


A few, 2 or three, of projects that the industry would consider important isn't ostentatious and doesn't scream look at me.

Any more than that screams look at me, don't look at my writing.

[Rob K]

That's the point, Rob.

For places that ask for specifics, give specifics.

For everyone else keep it short if you list at all. A lot of time and energy goes into writing the writer's guidelines page. If people want your credits along with your query, they'll ask for them.


A few, 2 or three, of projects that the industry would consider important isn't ostentatious and doesn't scream look at me.

Any more than that screams look at me, don't look at my writing.

Right. But my point is that if listing your credits damages your chances with a book publisher, that's an important factor that should be mentioned outright in the guidelines, in my view. How long does it take to write this: "Please do NOT list any prior publications or qualifications! I expect your writing to speak for itself!" Then, that saves a lot of writers from blundering in and flashing their credit lists. Of course, the writers that can read minds wouldn't need such advice, but they don't need to read guidelines, either.

[Richard H. Fay]

Coming from the angle of being a poet...I'm not always as concerned about being paid, or not being paid, as some fiction writers seem to be. Having scoured the market listings for both mainstream and speculative/genre poetry, I know there are plenty of non-paying poetry markets out there, in both fields. So I'm willing to consider submitting poetry to "4 the luv" markets, especially if I think they look promising. Not to mention, I know of at least one editor who edits the poetry at an e-zine that doesn't pay for poetry, but is also editor at a few paying venues. I seriously doubt the quality of her editing varies from place-to-place. Plus, I am aware of one market that started out "4 the luv" (and published a couple of my poems), which is apparently now returning as a paying market. Besides, I think many of my publications in certain "4 the luv" markets have helped build my name as a speculative poet. I seriously doubt sending some material to "4 the luv" venues has hurt me. My personal experience seems to indicate otherwise, although there will always be those out there that see me as less-than-serious-about-this-writing-thing, or a mere "wannabe".

That being said, I may be less likely to send fiction to "4 the luv" markets, but there seem to be more options regarding fiction submissions than there are poetry ones.

[Richard H. Fay]

Of course, there is one publication I now regret, because the powers-that-be there were definitely less-than-serious about this writing thing, and told me as much. They also had an associated forum, where the administrators (who were also the powers-that-be of the zine) pulled some rather obnoxious shenanigans. I haven't had dealings with that particular publication since, although last I knew, they are still around.

Still, I do list this publication in my "List of Publications" on my web site, and I have mentioned it in my cover letter when submitting poetry elsewhere. Regardless of my inside knowledge, the place in question does give the appearance of being a potentially worthwhile venue. Not to mention, it was an art/poetry combo, so I'm quite reluctant to disown this credit completely. If I suffer for it, so be it. If things are that ridiculous, then maybe it's not worth it anyway.

This was probably my worst experience with a "4 the luv" market. I've actually encountered some "4 the luv" markets that act in a more professional manner than some paying markets! At least a couple of the "4 the luv" markets I deal with on a regular basis (including one that goes out of its way to call itself an amateur publication) send proofs prior to publication, an action that would have given me a chance to correct some of the editorial errors made in some of my poems in print at certain paying venues. Having seen such errors in my poems in print at paying venues has led me to believe that paying doesn't always equal better than non-paying in terms of editing prowess, appearance, and other such factors.

[Richard H. Fay]

By the way...having submitted well over one hundred poems to various venues, often submitting works multiple times before they eventually find the right home, I have yet to have a single editor or publisher say that they rejected my work due to a less-than-impressive publication credit listed in my cover letter. I simply don't think it has happened. Perhaps it does happen, but I would like to believe that every single rejection I've received was of the work under consideration, not of me as a poet in general, or of my past credits.

Not having had much to do with the search for agents, I can't comment on whether agents base their decisions on past credits alone, or whether they look at other factors as well. I would hope they don't come to a negative decision based solely on one possibly questionable publication credit, but knowing something of human nature, I'm sure it happens. I'm not so naive to think it doesn't, but until I see someone saying "I was rejected by agents X and Y because the agents didn't like my list of previous credits, and the agents told me so in their rejection", I question how regular and widespread such a thing really is.

[Richard H. Fay]

A final thought...I'm a fairly regular poetry contributor at Aphelion, a "4 the luv" web zine. However, I also have poetry accepted for publication at various paying markets on a fairly regular basis. Admittedly, there are some somewhat higher paying markets I have yet to crack (like Strange Horizons), but I think it has more to do with my style not fitting the editorial vision of these publications, and less to do with the fact that my poetry appears regularly in Aphelion. Plus, I currently have two poetry collections in the works at two different publishers. Both will contain, among other works, some of my poems published in Aphelion.

Are my Aphelion publications hurting me? I seriously doubt it.

[The Griot]

Just got an email titled "from writer to author" from a person I'm on the Oregon Writers Network with. She just sold her first story ever. She sold it to F&SF. She aimed high, she scored high. For all I know (I do know she was taught the pyramid system of subbing) it was the first place she subbed it.

What she didn't do was sell herself short and aim for an easy kill because she had no "resume". That's an important component.

In his latest mythbusters I posted here, Dean Wesley Smith talks about the several year 'expirement' he did where he kept a mental tally based on convention conversations with editors and agents about what they read outside of their slush. The answer was a universal 'not damn much.' Time.

I think the best bet for potential talent to get noticed by said editors would be by putting stories/novels right in front of their face on their desks than subbing to small places hoping to get discovered like a 1950's starlet working in a hollywood ice cream palor.

I bet big house editors have some situational awareness of Big Award winners (Nebula, Hugo, etc) that has overlap with their genre, but I wouldn't bet big.

This of course predisposes that one is writing to catch the attention of the publishers in the first place and not for other (equally valid) reasons.

EDIT: I should note I wrote this reply not as somekind of "refute" to Groit but rather to champion the merits of the pyramid system as it applies to someone with a career type mindset.

I'm a firm believer in shooting for the top. When I was in a submitting mode I always sent my stories to the 'top' magazines first. Heck, all they can do is say no.