My view of sword and sorcery.

[Rob K]

What does sword and sorcery mean to me? I do not confuse it with high fantasy, urban fantasy, dark fantasy, or literary fantasy. Although the lines may blur at times between high fantasy and sword and sorcery (as it does in my own writing), sword and sorcery to me is its own genre and clearly defined.

Sword and sorcery has a gritty swagger that speaks of cracked skulls, black candles atop a bloodstained altar, and a searing blade in the dark. It is the lustful gleam in a rogue's eye as he gazes at the object of his undoing. It is, when the vultures are closing in at last to pick clean the ribs of the fallen, a pile of corpses stacked like a wall around a steel-thewed warrior bearing a blood-streaked grin.

It is not sparkling magic swords, prancing unicorns, wizardly apprentices, or an average character discovering the hero within. Rather, It is superhuman strength, savage will, lightning reflexes, and heavy blades tearing through flesh and bone. It is not about you or me, but about warriors who tower over their fellow humans and who spit in the face of death every day of their lives.

[Jaqhama]

Yeah.
That's pretty much my idea of sword and sorcery as well.
Don't forget the nubile young maidens that always need rescuing.
The slavering monsters in the catacombs.

Unicorns and wizards and all that stuff?
Nah.
I don't like fairy tales.
I think of S&S as 'hard' fantasy and the rest of the stuff as 'soft' fantasy. Fluffy.

In high/epic/dark/urban/paranormal fantasy who'd be able to stand against Conan or Druss or Elric?

[erazmus]

I agree with you guys.

Mike

[cussedness]

I can't completely agree. I consider my work to be dark fantasy. Yet, I like to think that the scions of the Sinclair family, Todd and Jordan, could stand toe to toe with Druss et al. In fact that was my introduction to Gemmell, when a reader told me that Todd was similar to Druss and I went, "Who's Druss?" I've now read my way through most of Gemmell's work.

[Rob K]

Having said that, I actually favor something closer to high fantasy for my own writing--for my novels in particular. But when I do write sword and sorcery with the intent to label it as such, I try to adhere to what I believe is the true spirit of it--otherwise I won't call the story sword and sorcery. Why is it important for me to define it? Because it lets readers know what they can expect. If every story were just a stew of genres, readers would have a hard time finding what they like or knowing what writers to buy from. My other reason is that I'm quite fond of sword and sorcery is its pure form. I don't want a tearful romance in my sword and sorcery tale. I don't like soft-hearted barbarians who enjoy giving hugs. Overall, I won't consider a story that contains those elements, or elements like those, to be true sword and sorcery, but more of a blend of genres or high fantasy. I suppose that makes me a purist when it comes to sword and sorcery, and if so, I'm happy to bear such a label.

[cussedness]

NOthing wrong with being a purist. As to the touchy feelie stuff -- Todd and Jordan are wolfweres who spend most of their time in human form. (please don't think werewolf who toss cars around in horror). The animal side of their nature expresses in physical contact in their cultures. Hug the wife, put her in back of them, and then slash their way through a couple dozen soldiers. I have been told repeatedly that the books and shorts about my lycans read like westerns.

[erazmus]

They do read like westerns, so what? Perfectly valid form much under used these days. And its also dark fantasy as well. And occasionally, S&S. When the story slides into purist territory. Sword and Sorcery contains a gritty feel and a set of stakes both lower and more personal than other forms of fantasy. To me, that is what separates it from High fantasy, Epic Fantasy, some Dark Fantasy-the stakes, the dirt, the motivations and outcomes. King or commoner, the S&S hero fights for his own self, his turf, his pocket. The outcome usually isn't world-shattering though it may constitute a political or social upheaval, the fate of worlds usually doesn't hinge on the hero's actions, just his world--his turf, his fortune, his life. Like a noir crime thriller compared to a high-tech spy thriller, the stakes are lower and more personal.
Just My opinion, 'natch.

Mike

[cussedness]

Thank you, Mike. I have always preferred S&S to other forms of fantasy. I am also a big fan of both western novels and films. I much prefer the gritty personal stuff.

[Rob K]

I too am a fan of westerns. It is certainly acceptable to mix genres, and in fact doing so can create a more original feel. I'm merely talking labels here, and what I will or will not call a story. I won't call Terry Brooks' novels sword and sorcery, because they don't have the right feel (in my mind) to earn that label. But they do feature swords, sorcery, and plenty of action at times. If I mix too much of another genre into my sword and sorcery, I'm going to call the story by a different
label--high fantasy, dark fantasy, urban fantasy, or just fantasy if it's too hard to define.

I can agree that sword and sorcery is based around the personal needs of a character, rather than, say, a quest to save the world. In fact, when a character's goals get too selfless, the story often begins to read like high fantasy to me. Example: Conan, on a quest to save the world from evil and bring about peace? It just doesn't ring true for me. While Conan might save the world, that would be a result of some other goal he had in mind--such as obtaining wealth or power or claiming vengeance upon someone who wronged him.

[cussedness]

The only reason Conan would go after evil to save anything would be if that piece of land was his own private turf.

[Rob K]

The only reason Conan would go after evil to save anything would be if that piece of land was his own private turf.

Exactly. He'd save the world in the process of conquering it.

[darkbow]

Hmm. Well, I could possibly see Conan going off to save the world or possibly joining a military campaign to save the world if the main evil (particular villain, evil army, etc.) was a strong threat against everything, including Conan or (later in the Hyborean timeline) his kingdom. It would be a matter of self survival with the saving-of-the-world part being almost an aside.

I'd be interested in opinions on the works of somewhat like Erikson, with his Malazan series. I tend to think of it as epic fantasy, but there's definitely S&S characters and elements involved.

[ScrewMoonshine]

They do read like westerns, so what? Perfectly valid form much under used these days. And its also dark fantasy as well. And occasionally, S&S. When the story slides into purist territory. Sword and Sorcery contains a gritty feel and a set of stakes both lower and more personal than other forms of fantasy. To me, that is what separates it from High fantasy, Epic Fantasy, some Dark Fantasy-the stakes, the dirt, the motivations and outcomes. King or commoner, the S&S hero fights for his own self, his turf, his pocket. The outcome usually isn't world-shattering though it may constitute a political or social upheaval, the fate of worlds usually doesn't hinge on the hero's actions, just his world--his turf, his fortune, his life. Like a noir crime thriller compared to a high-tech spy thriller, the stakes are lower and more personal.
Just My opinion, 'natch.

Posts like these are one of the reasons I love this forum. Would you believe that before I came here, I didn't have the slightest clue what Sword & Sorcery means?

Robert Orme

[erazmus]

Yes, I would. Its a niche we cover here that has faded in most fans minds. Its broader than we sometimes think, practiced by novelists mostly now. You can still find a home for an 85K novel of pure S&S, but shorts are a tougher sell. I would up here looking for a place to discuss S&S, Back when Howard A. Jones was doing Flashing Swords and posting here a lot. Its still the place that speaks the most on the topic.

Mike

[che2000]

There are still a few places that will accept sword and sorcery like Kings of the Night, Sorcerous Signals and Heroic Fantasy Quarterly (and I recently placed a Clark Ashton Smith influenced piece with Innsmouth Free Press) but, yeah, generally speaking it's a hard sell to most magazines.

Although the spirit of s&s is still alive and well, I'm currently reading Joe Abercrombie's First Law novels, which are heir to the grand sword and sorcery tradition and writers like Scott Lynch, Mark Charan Newton and Peter Brett are also keeping the flame alive (I reckon).

[von Darkmoor]

Great thread. Love the description of S&S, Rob K. I also think the comparison to Westerns is appropriate.

I think today's media delivers S&S far more often than viewers think, even us S&S fans; its just not labeled as such. I believe that looked at in a certain way, professional wrestling is a direct descendant of S&S, as are all the characters in dual peril roles, such as each of the primary characters in Traffic and Jack Bauer in 24. This is what I see as the 'New' S&S - characters built upon S&S traits and functioning in larger scope events. Steven Erikson's Malazan series is a prime example of this too, in that he writes S&S characters into an epic/high fantasy series wherein we experience most of them acting foremost in survival and most often in personal triumph that just so happens to benefit a larger entity or on a larger scale than they often even profess to care about. I think it's a special skill to pull such writing off.

As for my reference to Bauer, strip away the surface layer of Jack's overriding desire to do his duty (as he sees it - another S&S trait) to his country and his president no matter what to what it really is - his firmly entrenched beliefs that he knows best, is best capable of handling whatever is thrown at him, and goddamn it, he will handle it with/without permission and no matter what's in his way...well, that's S&S any way you look at it.

[SilviaMG]

.... on a semi-related note, I am hoping publishing James Lecky's story (mentioned above) will bring more S&S stories for Innsmouth Free Press with Lovecraftian elements in the vein of Clark Ashtom Smith or Robert E.Howard's "Worms of the Earth".

[Rob K]

Jason,

Coming from a publisher of quality sword and sorcery like yourself, your opinion on my description is certainly noteworthy. I realize that others may strongly disagree with my view of sword and sorcery, and they have every right to do so.

Silvia,

Yes, we need more sword and sorcery markets--or at least markets will allow sword and sorcery elements coupled with whatever style the market typically publishes, as appears to be the case here. So I say good work for allowing James' story into the magazine.

[von Darkmoor]

To be completely fair, Rob, to the genre and the writers of it, RBE doesn't bill itself strictly as a publisher of S&S. I want RBE to become known as the publisher of heroic action adventure in ALL its glory, with S&S a predominant component. I will be the first to say that RotS and RotB are not pure S&S anthologies. I think that (the hopefully soon to be released) Demons: A Clash of Steel fits that bill much better - which is only appropriate, as the Clash of Steel series is all about concentrating on the sword of S&S.

I definitely appreciate your kind words, though

[Rob K]

Jason,

And it's a good idea to have broad appeal, because it means more readers who will get introduced to the stuff.

On a related note, no one said sword and sorcery can't--or shouldn't--evolve (or at least I didn't), but I think some of the elements must remain true to the roots. After all, is a western a western without guns, horses, and cowboys? Not so much, in my opinion. You must have certain elements to capture the right feel of it. That's what I strive to do as I (hopefully) improve my skills at writing it. I'm always hoping my next story will really nail it down!

[Dave]

Lots of S&S discussion and no mention of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane character? Fantastic stuff. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser - good, but felt too 'literary' to me to be true S&S. Anybody ever read the Imaro stuff by Saunders? I remeber some other series I read in high school, Brak the Barbarisn I think? I don't remeber it being all that good.

I recently pulled out my Conan collection and am re-reading them, starting at the beginning of the 'original' de Camp series.

My son is 11 - I recently foudn the full run of Burroughs Tarzan, Pellucidar, and John Carter of Mars books on eBay. He's going through them now. I think he needs to be a bit older for Conan though!

[von Darkmoor]

Speaking of KEW, I just finally managed to nab his books - all 3 novels and 2 collections - at the pulp convention last weekend. I certainly look forward to reading them, as I have only read a small handful of his shorts.

[Dave]

You're in for a treat - he also wrote a Conan novel.... Conan the Road of Kings. Looking forward to it!

[camille]

It is not ... prancing unicorns ...

WOOOOOHOO!! Unicorns! Sweet!!

Sorry... I know you guys all talked about some other stuff, but I stopped at unicorns. 'Cause they are awesome.

[Dave]

Speaking of KEW, I just finally managed to nab his books - all 3 novels and 2 collections - at the pulp convention last weekend. I certainly look forward to reading them, as I have only read a small handful of his shorts.

You should write reviews for SFReader (poke)