Science Fiction or Fantasy?

[Daniel L Carter]

I thought that I would throw this question out to everyone, at what point does a work of fiction become classified as science fiction or fantasy? I guess what I'm asking is what is the criteria that classifies a book in either category or both? I find that they often are interchangeable in some cases. Let me know your thoughts.

[che2000]

To be a wee bit blas?, I reckon the difference between science fiction and fantasy is: 'what if?' and 'why not?'.

I suppose the crossover happens somewhere between the two - something like Jack Vance's Dying Earth that blends sf extrapolation with fantasy inventiveness. Although, to be honest, in commercial terms, I reckon it's fantasy if it involves swords, but sf if it involves guns either of the ray or bullet variety. Although, of course, there are many examples that can - and will - prove me wrong.

[erazmus]

I think it is the underlying sense of the work that provides the real break-point between the two. There is no more difference in say, setting aside the limits of Einsteinian physics to allow faster than light travel and setting aside just about everything to allow for the existence and sudden appearance of elves but they feel very different. There is a difference between postulates, in "What if you could move between eras to explore the past" (as in Connie Willis's "The Doomsday Book") and "What if the laws of Contigation and Similarity applied in the real world" (Which is just one of the many postulates of the Harry Potter series).
Science Fiction does more than just ask "What if . . .?" and Fantasy sets aside more than just a few inconvenient truths. There is a feel, a sensibility, to each. Sure, some works ride the edge of that sensibility, which is easy to do when the author is aware of it. But in general science fiction usually achieves a feel of "it could happen if . . ." as opposed to fantasy. Fantasy has its own reality, consistent within itself but not as easy to project into any foreseeable future.
Or, from a far more practical and cynical standpoint, SF has spaceships and ray-guns on the cover, and fantasy has dragons.

Mike

[Richard H. Fay]

Simply put, science fiction has some sense of the scientific, while fantasy has more of a sense of the fantastical (the "fairy" and "fantastic" elements Professor Tolkien talks about in his essay "Tree and Leaf").

That's the way I see it, anyway.

[Rob Santa]

All right, I'll add one more.

Science fiction involves an element of science integral to the story. Without the element of science, if the story can still exist, it is not a science fiction story in its most basic form. For example, if Louis Wu and Teela run around with another human being named Speaker to Animals on Earth moving from one adventure to another, it's not science fiction. But if they instead have these adventures on a gigantic, artificial construction shaped like a ring around a manufactured star, and Speaker to Animals is an alien being, and the end result of the adventures is the very survival of the Ringworld itself, it's science fiction.

Which moves onto the corollary: is Star Wars science fiction? I contend yes because of the setting and for no other reason. An orphaned farm boy joins with a retired priest-warrior and a pirate to rescue a princess from an evil empire led by a dark sorcerer, concluding with an epic sword duel and a raid on the mpire's main castle. If it were done in the Scottish highlands it would be fantasy; in the depths of space it is science fiction.

Fantasy involves something that cannot be explained with science, 'nuff said. As soon as you take those elves and explain them through the lens of evolution, you've got a science fiction story. I strongly feel that's why Lucas and company went with the midichlorian (sic) explanation of The Force, to remove all mystical allusions. Puke, by the way.

Science fiction involves the real world, anything that can be explained with current or extrapolated technology. Fantasy involves the not-so-real world of everything that cannot.

[Daniel L Carter]

Science fiction involves the real world, anything that can be explained with current or extrapolated technology. Fantasy involves the not-so-real world of everything that cannot.

Let me ask you this then. What if the story contains both the scientific and the mystical elements? Does the science override the mystical elements or vice versa?

[che2000]

Er, then you get either Science Fantasy or Hard SF, I suppose.

[erazmus]

It depends on how its done. If not done well, I suspect you'd get a mish-mash that wouldn't go over well. Handled will skill and aplomb, you might get an interesting read. The categories themselves help set reader expectations. I've never felt the need to confuse the boundaries of the two just to do it. I don't know many readers yearning for a science fiction story with mystical elements or a fantasy with solid science incorporated into the plot.

Mike

[Mike Griffiths]

As mentioned above Stars Wars could almost be considered an example of such a mix. I don't think they are taboo really. The movie Wizards was fun and was a mix of both worlds. If you do it well, people will come, but it isn't like it hasn't been tried before.

MDG

[Greybeard]

Er, then you get either Science Fantasy or Hard SF, I suppose.

But at what point does the science play a large enough factor to turn it from fantasy into science fantasy? When the aliens fire lasers or when the orcs use forged steel? Remember that chipped flint is technology.

IMO, magic means the story is fantasy. Science and technology along with magic means the story is fantasy in a futurinstic setting. Remember that, even with its space ships and aliens, Heinlein called Stranger in a Strange Land a fantasy.

[che2000]

And there's Moorcock's Runestaff novels, which posit a far future Europe but couches the story very much in the language and imagery of fantasy.

[Hamstersbane]

Or CS Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy.

[Daniel L Carter]

I often find that different works of fiction are defined by plausibility. For example... Science Fiction often gives you an explanation (to one degree or another) for what is happening or for the technology within the story. As for Fantasy I find plausibility has been thrown out the window and anything goes.

Now granted I don't think that every story must fall exclusively within one or the other. Often the publishers choose what aspects of the story have more, science or fantasy. I personally don't see a problem with having a good deal of both within a story but I find that if you have science fiction elements in the story then the work gets classified as such. At least that is what I've seen. I know there are always exceptions.

[erazmus]

Well, science ideas should drive the plots of science fiction, though they don't always seem too these days. As for determining what goes on the spine of the book, that is usually driven by the publisher's marketing department, and where they thing it will sell the best. They don't spend a lot of time going through the book to see what is in it, they usually don't even read the book, just maybe a synopsis.

Mike

[Richard H. Fay]

Like with many things in this world, humans like to classify their literature. They like to try to place genre literature in nice, tidy categories and sub-categories. Unfortunately, just as with other things in the real world, the lines between categories and sub-categories often blur. The best one can truly hope for is a generalization, that "science fiction" revolves more around scientific concepts, and "fantasy" revolves more around fantastical concepts. However, the two categories are not always mutually exclusive.

Then you have horror, which is defined more by emotion than elements. You can have a work with science fiction or fantasy elements, but if the overall purpose of the work is to create a sense of terror or horror, then the work could be classified as horror. The darker works of Lovecraft and other writers of "weird tales" often contain fantasy or science fiction elements, but it can be argued that creating a sense of horror or terror (as opposed to a sense of wonder or awe) is often the main emotional goal of such works.

Being a writer of genre verse that often blurs the lines, I've taken to using the more general term of speculative poetry when describing my works. Unfortunately, the publication world doesn't always see it that way, and I often find myself restricted to the horror category, since a lot of my works are dark in nature. Still, I consider some of my works to be just as much science fiction or science fantasy as they are horror. The only thing my supernatural horror pieces share with my dark sci-fi pieces is the dark emotion. They don't really share that many elements.

Of course, this debate, in various versions, keeps popping up every so often in the genre writing community. There is a lot of trying to shove works in particular boxes in a community that, in my opinion, should do more thinking outside the box. Categories have their uses, but I don't think anyone should worry over them too terribly much.

[erazmus]

You have to stand on the boxes, rather than sit inside them, to reach great heights.

Mike

[Richard H. Fay]

You have to stand on the boxes, rather than sit inside them, to reach great heights.

Mike

And stack several on top of each other to reach even greater heights.

[erazmus]

Just remember, more boxes means more instability unless you stack them just right.

Mike

[Richard H. Fay]

Just remember, more boxes means more instability unless you stack them just right.

Mike

Of course, the proper stacking technique may vary from person to person. The nature of the ground beneath may also affect an individual stack's stability.

Also, the broader the base beneath, the more stable a stack may be.

[Daniel L Carter]

Of course, the proper stacking technique may vary from person to person. The nature of the ground beneath may also affect an individual stack's stability.

Also, the broader the base beneath, the more stable a stack may be.

I personally just take the elevator. =)

[Rob Santa]

And that would be a space elevator, a carbon nanotube string from earth to a trojan point in orbit, where the centripetal acceleration can break free of Earth's gravity, launching spaceships to the dragon planet of Kan-doon, a place where the riders of the firebreathing dragon aliens wield sorcerous powers based on the planet's magnetosphere to capture and torture human settlers in ways too horrifyiong to relate here.

[che2000]

As Issac Newton once said: "If I can see further than others it's only because I'm wearin' me new glasses" (or something like that anyway).

[RLCopple]

I think the easy line to draw is if it may be possible in the future, even if not now, it is science fiction. If it simply doesn't exist, like elves and magic, then it is fantasy.

But science fiction has various levels. Hard science fiction means you have very plausible explanations, whether written in or not, for everything there based on current scientific knowledge. Space opera, which is more what I write on the SF side of the isle, can contain fantasy elements. For instance, Star Wars is often noted for that mix because of the force. And while they offered an explanation of it, there is no scientific evidence of any kind that midichlorian exist. Like elves, it is a totally made up entity with no foundation in reality at all. It's still classified as science fiction, but it is space opera science fiction, when tends to mix fantasy elements into the science fiction, and focuses more on the story than on how things work.

And then there are books like the Dragon Riders of Pern. In my library that was classified as science fiction, because it was another planet, and the dragons were alien creatures, and they could breath fire by eating certain rocks, or something like that. So, it was classified as SF even though it had dragons in it, a classic fantasy element.

It should also be noted, that when the publisher labels it, marketing concerns are often more important than what the content would label it. I've heard of science fiction novels being classified as fantasy simply because fantasy sells better, so the publisher knows it will get looked at more on the shelf at B&N if it's sitting with the fantasy books.

[Richard H. Fay]

Who says elves and magic don't exist (especially elves)?

Elves, as a part of traditional fairy lore, were definitely considered to be real beings by various cultures. Elves are apparently still taken seriously by a significant portion of the Icelandic population, and some Irish still believe in the hidden folk, the other crowd. Tolkien drew from the well of traditional folklore when creating his elves of Middle Earth.

[RLCopple]

I sure some do believe in it. Sort of like that guy on a talk show one time I watched, who had a religion built around the Partridge Family. Shirley was the mother goddess, and the children more minor gods under her. And the strange thing is, he seemed down right serious about it all.

You can find people who believe the weirdest things at times. So I wouldn't be surprised to find people who believe elves exist. But scientifically verifiable evidence to that would make world-wide news and be on the front page of every newspaper. Thus, as far as science is concerned, they don't exist, and if they did, we'd know about them by now just like we know about the Aborigines in Australia. Thus fantasy and not science fiction.

Maybe that's the part I failed to include in the definition. Doesn't and very unlikely it exist as far as science knows. That would be the difference between the midichlorian and the alien from a far off planet. The alien could potentially exist out there somewhere. Probably not exactly like presented, but who knows? There's no scientific evidence to say it doesn't exist or can't, so we give that a pass despite the probability of that alien existing out there somewhere is no doubt infinitesimal. But if midichlorian exist all through the universe, then they exist here. And we have no proof that they do, so it is fantasy.

But, if we did discover such a thing as knowledge advances, they would become science fiction elements then, just as evidence that elves do exist would turn them into science fiction elements. Or really, mainstream if on this world.