Sword and Sorcery... let's get a discussion goin'

[che2000]

"There is absolutely no need for Sword and Sorcery to develop new maturities of style and theme and turn itself into sober, responsible 'adult fantasy'... Is Sword and Sorcery a broad general field of narrative, cluttered with dozens of competing styles and schools and traditions? Quite the contrary: Sword and Sorcery is the smallest tightest literary genre... and one that is completely derivative. We who write it all work within the narrow tradition whose parameters were set down by (Robert E.) Howard in the 1930s"
- Lin Carter. Imaginary Worlds.

The above words were written in 1973 by one of the foremost critics/ champions of Sword and Sorcery. Were they true then? Are they true now?
Let's get a discussion goin', folks.

[Jaqhama]

Lin Carter was one of my favourite authors when I first started reading. His Callisto novels were excellent. I enjoyed his Thongor stories as well. The man lived and breathed S&S and sword and planet adventure.

Apart from story lines theres absolutly no need for S&S to change. The intricate fantasy of Tolkien and other later authors all took the S&S theme and expanded it until it became what some people call high or epic fantasy. To be honest I mainly prefer one swordsman against the world kind of stories. I don't need intricate plot twists and dozens of minor characters to keep track of either.
Michale Moorcock perfected the single hero with a few major supporting characters scenario in his Elric/Corum/Hawkmoon novels.

The best and most recent author of S&S would be David Gemmel, now sadly passed away. A hard act to follow.

Apart from we small press folk who's writing S&S or S&P and published by a big publishing house?

Andy Remic is having a go with his Kell novels, I haven't read them.

Richard Morgan has written what is claimed to be two S&S novels, but having read many reviews I know they're not my idea of S&S.

Any more?

[che2000]

Joe Abercrombie and Scott Lynch have been held up as examples of the 'new sword and sorcery' - I've read and enjoyed the First Law Trilogy and there are a lot of recognisably s&s elements in there (the Bloody Nine being the most obvious) but is it sword and sorcery in the purest sense? Probably not.

Richard Morgan's The Steel Remains has also been called s&s but the novel did nothing for me - not enough style or sustance.

The closest thing I've read recently to classic sword and sorcery would be the Witcher novels and stories of Andrzej Sapkowski (of which, sadly, only a couple are available in English translation).

Maybe the reason why sword and sorcery is (primarily) the preserve of the independent press is that it hasn't changed overmuch since Howard's day, unlike, say, Space Opera which has developed in various different directions since the 1930's. Then again, Space Opera also has its own set of fairly rigidly defined rules but has managed to evolve within them, unlike sword and sorcery (arguably).

[Jaqhama]

I'll add Simon R Green to my list...he's written a number of sword and sorcery novels.

[Dave]

I have to second Gemmel - one of the few authors I always kept up with. I don't think there was a single book of his I didn't enjoy.

Haven't read Green, will put on the list.

I can recommend the King's Blade's books by Dave Duncan - very fun with a very noticable S&S foundation.

Are we only talking modern?

[Jaqhama]

I'm only talking modern because I reckon all of us know the orginal 'old masters'.

For me REH and Michael Moorcock are still my S&S authors of choice. Though I haven't read anything Moorcock's written in the last decade or so, I preffered his earlier works.

[che2000]

I suppose what I'd like to know is has sword and sorcery changed substantially since Howard's day, or is all s&s merely a reaction to or imitation of Howard? Creations such as Elric and Kane, for instance could be seen as a reaction to Howardian s&s - or at least how it was percieved by the reading public, and although the works of writers such as Steven Erikson could be seen as having a foot (or at least a toe) in the sword and sorcery camp, they are very different beasts to the works of Howard, Leiber, Kuttner, Moore et al.

Is sword and sorcery still a viable literary model in these days of huge rolling epics and multiple narratives or has the form simply changed to survive with the times, meaning that 'pure' sword and sorcery is an exercise in nostalgia in much the same way that pure sword and planet has become (since we now are fairly certain that neither Mars or Venus boast exotic and cruel civilisations).

Or lets put it another way - as writers of sword and sorcery, are we wasting our time, effort and talent?

[John M. Whalen]

Howard wrote for the market. Despite what his fanboys say, I don't think he'd have written any Conan stories that he didn't think he couldn't sell. IF he were writing today, he probably wouldn't be writing S&S. He'd probably be writing vampire, werewolf, and zombie stories. To cling to a certain genre out of nostalgia is probably not the smartest thing a writer can do. IMHO.

[che2000]

Of course, just because a (sub) genre has old roots doesn't necessarily consign it to the rubbish dump of literature. Space Opera, for instance, has managed not only to cling to life but to flower and grow, even nudging its way into the mainstream (i'm thinking very specifically of the novels of Iain M Banks). The early tropes of Space Opera are no less defined than those of sword and sorcery - Edward E. Smith being, in some respects, the Robert E Howard of Space Opera - yet the genre has gained a certain amount of literary respectability.

Perhaps what is needed is a more overtly literary approach to sword and sorcery, or is 'literary sword and sorcery' and oxymoron?

[John M. Whalen]

You're absolutely right about space opera. As someone who writes space opera, horror and S&S, it's easier to sell space opera right now than it is S&S. And even easier to sell horror. There are more markets available. I've had one S&S story that has sold twice and both times the pubs died before the story could be published. It's currently sitting in another slush pile. My stories about Tragon and Yusef have sold to three pubs over the last four years. One is in a Pill Hill Press anthology, the first one was published in Flashing Swords, back in 2006. Another made it into a Greek print mag (translated into Greek and English). I'm working on a novel featuring these characters. My approach is to take S&S themes and look at them from the perspective not of brute barbarians or cunning thieves and outlaws, but from the perspective od two intelligent human beings, who are trying to make sense of the strange world they live in, which, in fact, is no stranger than the world in which we ourselves live. I wouldn't want to label my work as "literary," but rather "literate." It assumes that the reader is a fairly intelligent person who has his own questions about the world he lives in. My spacewestern novel, Jack Brand, also is an attempt to breathe real life into a pop culture genre. I'm all in favor of stepping up genre fiction to another level.

[Jaqhama]

There will always be a market for S&S while people want to read it.
The market will likely be kept alive through e-books now I believe.

I've given up writing shorts for ezines and magazines. Too many of them go under on a regular basis.
I won't give stories to the small press for an e-book either.
I can produce an e-book of my stories myself. Many are, even some of the folk here. Waves to G.

Like John I've been concentrating on full length novels. I've finished two, submitted both and am on my third novel.

I'd be happy to write a western novel, and probably will one day, as western's still sell, but to a minority readership. Writing a western would be a labour of love, rather than a genre where one expected to make a large profit if published.
I think S&S today is like that. You write it because you enjoy it, not because you expect to get rich from it.

I miss the 70's when publishers like NEL published anything and everything. Long live the Picadilly Cowboys.

Cheers : Jaq

[che2000]

It can and has been done - M. John Harrison's excellent novel A Storm of Wings uses the tropes science fantasy mixed with sword and sorcery themes and motifs, Samuel Delany's Neveryon does something similar and Iain M Banks uses some of the more obvious elements of sword and sorcery in his novel The Bridge in a playful but respectful manner.

Again, I think it boils down to writers deliberately working within a rather narrow perimiter, although it is possible to range far and wide within such restrictions - I'm thinking rather specifically of the private eye novel the protagonists of which have a wider scope than the average sword and sorcery protagonist.

Thanks for reminding me about the Picadilly Cowboys, Jaq. I've always had a tremendous fondness for George G. Gilman who, and I don't care what anyone says. was a hell of a storyteller. I enjoyed the Jubal Cade novels by 'Charles R. Pike' too.

[Jaqhama]

You can chat with George G Gilman...Terry Harknett his real name, and other pulp western writers and their legion of fans here:

http://gggandpcs.proboards.com/

I posted there a few times, sent a private message to Terry, thanking him for the hours of enjoyment I got from his Edge and Steele westerns and others.
He answers PM's.

The board is a good resource for getting out of print NEL novels or to start collecting them.
I've still got Edge #1 to # 20 something. Most of the Steele novels. All of the Jubal Cade and Apache series. The first seven of so Fox books. All of the Andrew Quiller, Vulpus the Fox, Gladiator series. My fave series of the british pulps actually.
Got the first five NEL Return of Dracula series. Missing the sixth to complete the series. Got the odd single copy of other Brit westerns. Blade. Crow. Caleb Thorn. Got a single copy of a Wolfshead novel, read a couple of them, another great series.

The only difference between the Vulpus and Wolfshead novels, compared to S&S books is that there's no sorcery in them. But plenty of swordplay and action/adventure.

I have to say that the Vulpus series is streets ahead of the current TV shows like Rome and Spartacus.
A better storyline and a better character, in more exotic settings.
Damn shame none of the NEL books have been re-published in recent years.

Terry Harknett is e-booking the Edge series, book 1 is already available. He's also written the final book in the Edge series, and that's available from the forum board.
Edge # 1 on Kindle from Amazon USA and UK:

http://www.amazon.com/Edge-the-Loner.../dp/B0040V4ISU

Man, imagine George G Gilman and Charles R Pike (Both Terry by the way) writing NEL S&S stories...

Edge/Steele/Apache/Jubal Cade/The Undertaker...all Terry Harknett..the man was a writing machine.

Same as Ken Bulmer, another great British writer, who did write dozens of sci-fi and S&S books.
You'll know him as Alan Burt Akers...Transit to Scorpio, Dray Prescott, sword and planet adventure. As good as anything ERB wrote.

Ken as Tully Zetford, also wrote the; Hook, star spanning man of the future, sci-fi series. My all time fave SF series. 4 in english from NEL. up to 7 in German, the series was very popular in Germany.

Ken Bulmer is credited with over 200 books published in his lifetime. Man should be a writing legend, but in actual fact few have ever heard of him, as he wrote under alias' a great deal.

All of those books mentioned above, most likely never to be published again, that is a terrible thing.

Ah...NEL did publish S&S...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Swords-barba...tt_at_ep_dpt_6

And here's the entire Amazon USA Ken Bulmer listing:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kenneth-Bulmer/e/B001KIXAXU

[che2000]

NEL provided the literary backdrop of my childhood and teenage years (some of my adult years too, truth to tell). I still have quite a few Edge and Adam Steele books squirrelled away and all but one of the Jubal Cade novels (irritatingly it's the last one where he finally gets to deal with Kincaid) as well as most of the Gringos series and, like yourself, the odd copy of things like Apache, Caleb Thorne, Hawk and the like.

I remember Gilman's Undertaker series with a wry and twisted fondness. Ah NEL... we will never see their like again.