2011 Contest???

[Grace Rellie]

I just found this site through a Google search for contests and I was wondering when this year's contest is? I couldn't find the info. anywhere on the site.

[Dave]

Hi Grace,

Welcome to SFReader.

I'm on the fence about running the contest this year. It takes a lot of time, effort and money that comes right out of my own pocket. Weere SFReader showing some vitality as a community, I might be more tempted to continue with the contest. As is however, I remain undecided at this point.

[Ropespor]

Great question, Grace! I was wondering the same thing when I checked and saw this post.

I can see your point, Dave. It's hard to justify a contest (with decent cash prizes and no entry fee) when there is only a low to middling response. I confess my own continued bewilderment, though, at the low turn-out for the contest the past couple years (because did I mention decent cash prizes and no entry fee?).

When I lament the lack of vitality that you referenced, I must also confess that I am one of the "old-timers" who has not visited very often this past year. If there is a lack of vitality, I am one of the users who is not bringing vitality to it. It has been a great site that has provided many of us, myself included, with a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction over the years, and I hope to see it resurge.

This gets off topic, but I keep going back to this: the drop-off seemed to be concurrent with the switch to the new host/format. However, I can't, for the life of me, put my finger on what it was, exactly, about the changes that would have triggered the lack of migration of users to the new format. Could it really be something as simple as the fact that logging in to the sfreader URL still brings one to the old page, where one has to find the link to be taken to the "New SFReader"? Or is that too simple a factor? I don't know--I'm baffled.

[Dave]

The drop did occur with the move to the new platform. vBulletin, however, is very popular, and I expect almost everyone here has run into it at sometime or other. The basic forum features are pretty easy to figure out.

Might be as you said that I need to redirect from the main domain to here, the problem is there are hundreds of old reviews still available on the old site. The time and effort (or expense if I outsourced it) would be too much f an investment to move the reviews over. So I'm sort of stuck there.

Might be that SFReader has simply run its course....

[John M. Whalen]

Forum participation appears to be dwindling across the board. The Raygun Revival forum, once a fairly lively place, now on EDF has zilch! Rogue Blade Entertainment is dead temporarily due to technical problems. A couple of others I know don't seem all that busy either lately. Could be the stressful economic times. Just hang in there. Meanwhile, if there are any virus problems here they've never been a problem for me or my computer as far as I can tell. I'll keep checking in and posting as long as SF Reader is open. I appreciate your efforts, Dave, to provide us with a place to meet and greet and promote and critique. Hope you won't give up the ship.

One thought does occur to me. The heyday of this forum was during the period David Blackston and Howard Andrew Jones were involved. David continually posted controversial statements inviting and encouraging raucous discussions that quickly became flame wars. Maybe we need somebody like that to get things fired up around here. Howard was editing Flashing Swords and that pub generated a lot of self-congratulatory discussion among the authors. Maybe the forums needs that kind of tie in with an ezine to keep things lively.

But I think the problem is most people no longer have the time to get that involved anymore. Again, this is probably because of the economic situation. People who work all day are too tired to ramble on on a forum. Most companies have downsized and the survivors are doing the work of the three people in the office who got canned. Who can sit on their computer and talk about hobbits for hours? Well, I for one would never discuss hobbits except as something to use for target practice. But you know what I mean. It's grim. GRIM! I tell you!

[Jaqhama]

Hobbits all over the world are copying and pasting John's comments to their fellows.
I hear there's a bounty being raised.
I'd keep a real careful look out for diminitive postmen and door to door salesman and such.
I hear they often disguise themselves as small children, waiting for thir chance to strike.
Makes me shiver just thinking about it.
Just for the record John and I aren't real close, I mean we only chat on this forum together, it's not like we're blood brothers or anything.
Hell, I don't have anything against Hobbits myself.
Now blue skinned Pandorans...that's another story.

Back on track...I reckon plenty of folk are just over internet forums. Or maybe they all post on Face-Twit these days.
It's noticeable that most of the regular posters here before were writers and with the decline of so many small press and webzine markets I guess they don't have anything to talk about.
I'm lucky in that I can post at home or at work, good way to pass a lot of those night-shift hours.

I think I'll start a new thread called Jaq's 30 second guide to action packed adventure novels. Some of them are SF, some are hybrid genre novels, like Patient Zero. Many of them are pure pulp rubbish in terms of content and storyline, but I find them an enjoyable way to pass the time.
Maybe one of you can do a 30 second guide to fantasy and sword and sorcery novels...I've kind of gone off new fantasy works myself. Just seems to be the same old stuff, slightly re-packaged.
A 30 second guide to urban and paranormal fantasy might be good as well. I know it's a real popular genre.
Stuff like the above might help spark the forum up a bit.
At least you'll all know what deplorable bad taste I have in books.

The Contest...oh yeah, the Contest.

Dave old son...I wouldn't waste your money. Honest.
Writers who want to advertise their own work could offer up a couple of stories a year for free, to be published on the home page.
It would give people another reason to peruse SF Reader. It would allow readers to see if they enjoy a particulars writer's work.
Maybe from January next year we could have two stories a month. Even previously published stories.
Must be fully edited before it arrives of course.
Badly written/edited stories won't be accepted.
My own rule of story acceptance is that if I find a half dozen glaring errors on the first page I just toss the story.
I make mistakes when writing myself, near everyone does, but a decent writer will manage as few as possible.

What does everyone else think about sending a short story into SF Reader for free?
We must surely have enough writers that we can manage at least one new tale a month.
Maybe a roster system.
I provide a story for Jan 2012. Dave supplies one for Feb 2012. Fred provides one for March 2012, etc etc.
I've got a number of older stories gathering cyberdust on my hard drive, I'm sure most of you do.

Cheers: Jaq.

[John M. Whalen]

Glad to see you've got my back, brother.

Hobbits, those feckless twits. I've never met one that was worth a feck anyway. Worse than Smurfs.

As for giving away stories for free, forget it. I go by Harlan Ellison's motto. "Pay the writer."

[Jaqhama]

It's my thought that Dave provides the forum for us for nothing, paying whatever funds are needed to keep it going out of his own pocket.
So my giving him a couple of stories a year for free is a way of paying him back for his efforts. One might even say that he's paid me for my story in advance.
I've certainly gained much insighful knowledge and advice from many of the forum topics and posters.
The website and forum has provided much enjoyment for me over the years.

John...if the Hobbits get you...I swear I won't read LOTR ever again.

[John M. Whalen]

It's my thought that Dave provides the forum for us for nothing, paying whatever funds are needed to keep it going out of his own pocket.
So my giving him a couple of stories a year for free is a way of paying him back for his efforts. One might even say that he's paid me for my story in advance.
I've certainly gained much insighful knowledge and advice from many of the forum topics and posters.
The website and forum has provided much enjoyment for me over the years.
.

"A commendable notion . . . "
---Gov. Lew Wallace (Jason Robards) in Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid.

BTW, my Hobbitt-besotted friend, Happy Thanksgiving Day, mate. And to one and all on the forum. Put a Turkey on the Barbee next to that shrimp.

[Jaqhama]

We don't do thanksgiving here, amigo, but I'll accept the best wishes in the manner they were given.

Actually the big retail stores keep trying to introduce Halloween here but it's such an obvious ploy to try and get people to spend their hard earned that most Aussies ignore their efforts completly.
We don't do Guy Fawkes Night either. Which is a shame as burning a Guy used to be the highlight of our Novembers when I was a boy in the south of England.
Pretty boring lot here, really.

[John M. Whalen]

I know you don't celebrate Thanksgiving in Oz. Maybe you're better off. Unfortunately here in the U.S. Thanksgiving has come to be merely the Day Before Black Friday, which retailers and the media have turned into the biggest shopping day of the year. Stores open at midnight Friday morning and people literally lineup the night before to get in line for THE BIG BARGAIN. It's the madness of materialism run rampant. With unemployment at a record high, many people living on government checks and foodstamps, and a virtual freeze on the salaries of those who do have jobs, they expect people to go out and spend wildly to "keep the economy going." They say if people buy more it will stimulate the economy by creating jobs. But for who? Most manufacturing jobs have been outsourced. The only new jobs generated by retail sales are likely to be jobs in Mexico where most TVs and some US cars are made, or in third world countries and China where most toys and clothing articles are made.

Here's an idea for a sf story. Combine this economic mess with the terrorism-engendered police state we're drifting into. On Black Friday, riot police show up at the homes of the resistors who refuse to go shopping at midnight, and drag them out of their houses at gunpoint and force them to march to their nearest Wal-Mart and buy stuff. Of course a few summary executions would be in order to make examples for the multitides. Title: Black Friday.

[Jaqhama]

Truth is stranger than fiction.

[Dave]

How about a Member's Fiction forum, where, should a story deserve it, I and any other moderator (Jaq and a few others?) can promote to the front page?

[Jordan Lapp]

Forum participation appears to be dwindling across the board. The Raygun Revival forum, once a fairly lively place, now on EDF has zilch! Rogue Blade Entertainment is dead temporarily due to technical problems. A couple of others I know don't seem all that busy either lately. Could be the stressful economic times. Just hang in there.

It's all on Facebook now. Social networking killed the forums. Believe me the EDF forum used to smoke too...

One thought does occur to me. The heyday of this forum was during the period David Blackston and Howard Andrew Jones were involved. David continually posted controversial statements inviting and encouraging raucous discussions that quickly became flame wars. Maybe we need somebody like that to get things fired up around here.

You sir, are a constipated badger!!! Let the flame war begin....

It's my thought that Dave provides the forum for us for nothing, paying whatever funds are needed to keep it going out of his own pocket.
So my giving him a couple of stories a year for free is a way of paying him back for his efforts. One might even say that he's paid me for my story in advance.

I HALF agree with Whalen. I'm too busy writing work I've been contracted for to write something new for SFReader, but I don't mind contributing a reprint or two. My name's not worth much to the site at the moment, but I have two novels coming out from major publishers next year under a pen name, and it's possible (though a longshot) that the marketing push behind those books might drive people to this site.

[John M. Whalen]

I resemble that remark. How's your alcoholic ferett doing?

If what you say about Facebook is true it's a shame, because Facebook seens too limiting to allow the kind of discussions you can have on an open forum. But it goes along with the whole loss of mass communal experience we are encountering today. People now rarely share the same thing at the same time, but instead have individual experiences arranged for their own convenience. We DVR or Tivo TV shows to watch when we want, rent movies to watch at home instead of going to the theater, blog to our hearts content about inane subjects no one but we and a few other might be interested in, and think we are important because some friend provides a comment. We are literally living in a cybernetically-induced hallucination of self-importance. So no wonder no one wants to participate in an open forum, when you can control all content on Facebook and have everything your way.I think it's regrettable and something vital is being lost.

I'm reconsidering my comments on providing free stories for SF Reader, in light of Jaq's input. I'd consider supplying a reprint or something that hasn't been published. I too have a novel coming out next year. I don't however see my book as a drawing card for SF-Reader, though. It's probably the other way around. A free story here might be a good way to help promote the book.

[Jaqhama]

I'm not convinced that Facebook and similar sites has caused the decline here at SF Reader.
Social networking certainly doesn't seem to have affected SFF Chronicles or SFF World or the Baen's Bar forum.

John...yes, it was my idea that short stories posted here at SF Reader might draw attention to the author and gain him/her some fans.

The writer can mention his/her other stories/novels at the end of the story, including links to same.

I'd suggest we begin in Jan of 2012.

Jordan...why don't you tell us about your publishing deal, what the books are about, your pen name etc, maybe start it in a new thread?
I'm sure we're all interested to see what you have accomplished and are happy that a fellow SF Reader member has done well.

How about a Member's Fiction forum, where, should a story deserve it, I and any other moderator (Jaq and a few others?) can promote to the front page?

Sounds good to me, Dave.
I'd like a rule laid down that to get a story in the Member's Fiction Forum said member must have made at least 10 posts.
This will stop people signing up just to get a story on the site for free.
I might bend that rule for Michael Moorcock or Richard Morgan.

[Jordan Lapp]

I'm not convinced that Facebook and similar sites has caused the decline here at SF Reader.
Social networking certainly doesn't seem to have affected SFF Chronicles or SFF World or the Baen's Bar forum.

The biggest sites are unaffected because they are "destination sites". You go there anyways because everyone else reads it, not for any intrinsic value in the site.

Jordan...why don't you tell us about your publishing deal, what the books are about, your pen name etc, maybe start it in a new thread?
I'm sure we're all interested to see what you have accomplished and are happy that a fellow SF Reader member has done well.

I'm under NDA until at least May 2012. Kind of frustrating because I want to crow this from the rooftops but what can you do? This is the site of my pen name though: http://www.jordanellinger.com/ I'll gladly share all the details as soon as I'm legally free to do so (though most publishing contracts have a clause in them stipulating that the details must be kept private. I'll have to check mine and see if that's the case...).

I'm not convinced that posting a story at SFReader would result in too much publicity. Have you read the stories that have already been posted here? There are several years worth of contest winning stories on the site, and I certainly haven't read them all. Better that we all actually post on our blogs and Facebook and stuff something like "I have a story posted on SFReader. Why not drop by and read it, and maybe post a note about it on the forums while you're at it".

One thought does occur to me. The heyday of this forum was during the period David Blackston and Howard Andrew Jones were involved. David continually posted controversial statements inviting and encouraging raucous discussions that quickly became flame wars.

I remember Blackston remarking that Clarion West "homogenized a writer's fiction for consumption by a small coterie of editors". I'm a Clarion West grad and I just sold a Warhammer story. Seems like in that, as in many, many other things, he was dead wrong. I don't think we need someone with no knowledge of the publishing industry posting inane statements. I think that was part of what drove away some of the pro writers in the first place...

[Jaqhama]

Tell me again why you're writing under a pen name, Jordan?

I remember you said one reviewer wrote Latt instead of Lapp or something, but surely it's just as easy to make a mistake with Ellinger.

I saw you got a story in a Warhammer anthology and that you're now the Editor for Writers of the Future magazine. You're doing well.

I considered sending a story to WoftF once myself, but I've had too many short stories paid for and published so I didn't pass the guidelines.

[John M. Whalen]

"I remember Blackston remarking that Clarion West "homogenized a writer's fiction for consumption by a small coterie of editors". I'm a Clarion West grad and I just sold a Warhammer story. Seems like in that, as in many, many other things, he was dead wrong. I don't think we need someone with no knowledge of the publishing industry posting inane statements. I think that was part of what drove away some of the pro writers in the first place... "

I can see why you would object to that statement!

[wicked]

Provocative discussions are one thing, flame wars are another. Although I never did understand why things hit the fan with David the way they did. I didn't think he was all that bad.

Besides, a flame out only lasts so long, and then all the looky-loos go back to where they came from. It's a cheap trick. You might as well just drop the word porn into every third post so the web crawlers pick it up and get hits. :P

I think the tie-in zines are probably the best bet.
Stories are a nice feature, too, but I don't think it would generate as many regular active members. There needs to be constant activity to encourage activity.

[Jordan Lapp]

Tell me again why you're writing under a pen name, Jordan? I remember you said one reviewer wrote Latt instead of Lapp or something, but surely it's just as easy to make a mistake with Ellinger.

Ellinger is harder to mispronounce verbally. Anyone can write a typo, but actually mishearing is what I'm trying to avoid. Plus, you know, I'm writing a lot of commercial fiction right now, and if I ever want to try my hand and literary stuff, I can always switch pen names to avoid the bias against tie-in writers.

I saw you got a story in a Warhammer anthology and that you're now the Editor for Writers of the Future magazine. You're doing well.

Thanks. The really big news is under NDA, but for the first time my writing income will break five figures this year. Not quit-the-day-job money, but one can hope.

I considered sending a story to WoftF once myself, but I've had too many short stories paid for and published so I didn't pass the guidelines.

Thanks to your statement I contacted Author Services and asked them to clarify their guidelines. It's incredibly hard to disqualify yourself from the contest without having a novel published, but writers are always self-disqualifying themselves because of the imperfectly worded guidelines. In the next version of the rules, Author Services told me they're going to use the SFWA guidelines to determine disqualifying markets. So if you don't yet qualify for SFWA, you're still okay to submit (actually you can even be a SFWA member and be okay...WotF disqualifies on the FOURTH publication).

Provocative discussions are one thing, flame wars are another. Although I never did understand why things hit the fan with David the way they did. I didn't think he was all that bad.

I think the thread where Daniel attacked Nate Meyers was the straw that broke the camel's back, but you'd have to check the archives to be sure (actually not sure they exist since the changeover).

I can see why you would object to that statement!

It's just that, if Clarion West "homogenizes your writing" how was I able to sell work to one of the most commercial brands in the world? Warhammer books have sold into the hundreds of thousands of copies. Meanwhile I haven't exactly seen Blackston's name in lights. He said once that he was doing ghostwriting gigs, but those things pay horribly. I heard about a deal to ghostwrite a mystery novel for a "medium famous Hollywood personality". What did they offer? 3K, no royalties.

[Jaqhama]

Okay, I get the name change pen thing in regards to people mis-understanding Lapp and future writing genres.

What made you choose Ellinger?

(As opposed to Dillinger.)

Thanks for checking the actual nut and bolt guidelines at WotF for me.
It's obvious that most of us here at SF Reader can still submit a story, it appeared otherwise from my interpretation of their rules.

I never heard of Clarion West until you mentioned it.
Went and had a Google.
It's just a writers workshop for SFF, yes?

Doesn't gurantee a publishing deal I'm sure.

[Jordan Lapp]

What made you choose Ellinger? (As opposed to Dillinger.)

I looked at US Census Data for the top 100 most common names and thought that Ellinger sounded like "Elegant Dillinger". Looks like we think alike

Thanks for checking the actual nut and bolt guidelines at WotF for me.
It's obvious that most of us here at SF Reader can still submit a story, it appeared otherwise from my interpretation of their rules.

Frankly, the contest is the best thing out there for new writers. Win the top prize and you make more JUST IN CASH than you'd get for a first novel advance and winning a major international award gets you taken seriously by everyone in the publishing industry. And then there's the week you hang with the judges...the networking is amazing. I got my first novel contract indirectly through the contest. One of the previous winners that Author Services brings back every year hooked me up with an editor who was looking for a writer to write a follow-up novel to a book written by a #1 NYT Bestselling Author that you've ALL heard of. After I gave her my credentials, I sent her the story that won WotF. It made her cry and she offered me a novel contract on the spot. You need to be subbing to this contest every quarter. I cannot emphasize enough how much it's done (and continues to do) to support me in my career.

I never heard of Clarion West until you mentioned it.
Went and had a Google.
It's just a writers workshop for SFF, yes?

Doesn't gurantee a publishing deal I'm sure.

The only thing that guarantees a publishing deal is amazing writing. Clarion West is a six week workshop taught by the best in the biz (I notice GRR Martin and Chuck Pahlaniuk are teaching this year), so once again you have tremendous networking potential. Getting accepted to the workshop is a competitive process and they end up turning away hundreds of applicants every year (one guy I know actually placed 3rd in WotF and didn't get in). Being a CW grad tells publishing industry professionals that you're serious about writing and have met a certain minimum skill level. As you pointed out, it's not well known outside the industry, but who cares? You don't go to CW to impress readers, you go to impress publishers. As far as what "value" it has, aside from networking, I'd say that putting it on your resume is about as good as saying you have a Bachelor Degree in Creative Writing (maybe a little better than the Bach), or say 1 sale to one of the major magazines like Asimov's.

CW is a little far from you, but Clarion South in Australia has a pretty excellent reputation...


In any case, landing contracts these days is all about convincing agents, publishers, editors, whoever that you have a history of excellence--and winning awards and attending competitve workshops helps to do just that. Of course, they only help to get you in the door. You've got to write well once you're there or you're sunk!

One last thing: I've mentioned this before, but I'd like to point out this thread right on SFReader written by H. P. Lovesauce. He intended it to be asinine, but it's all absolutely true. Following this career path netted me two novel contracts in one year.

[The Griot]

Clarion is worth the investment. I'm self published and I wish I could apply just for the knowledge shared. The 9 to 5 won't allow it. One of my writing friends recently completed the course and said it was wonderful.

[Jordan Lapp]

Milton, Every year there's at least one person that quits their job to attend. The connections I made were the most valuable part of the experience for me, but I know some writers completely change their style after attending.