Forum News and Forum Future

[Dave]

Greetings all and a belated Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

As you've probably figured out, I decided to forego the contest this year. December rolled around and passed without me really remembering about the contest! I suppose that's a pretty strong subconscious signal that I didn't want to do it. Well, maybe next year.....

Back at the end of last summer, I invest in a vBulletin (the software this forum runs on) expert to consult on the future of SFReader, including look and feel, features, functionality, basically everything that goes into building a robust community. He delivered a 50+ page document detailing recomendations he thought would lead toward more users and a more active community.

So I can let SFReader plod along as is, seemingly headed for an eventual death, I can close the whole kit and kaboodle now (or maybe sell it in a firesale), or I can invest and see what happens.

So what do I want from you, the faithful few who are the lifeblood of the site? Not much.

Your opinion on investing in the site as the main thing. The other is a bit more nebulous. I'd like you to poke around the web at some of the other SFnF sites that seem to be working, that are robust and energetic.

http://SFSite.com
http://SFFworld.com

Any other science ficition, fantasy, or horror review or fourm site that you like, others like, or is popular.

What do they offer that SFReader doesn't?
What do you want from SFReader that you aren't getting?
What do you think will bring in fresh blood and revitalize the site?

Is anyone willing to take a more active role in SFReader? Many of you already email me about inappropriate content (spam) and that's great. We've got a new review editor on board. There's a moderator or two lurking around, though I'd have to check the permissions to remember who they are. One of the things I've seen on other sites is moderators who actively keep things going by posting news and other topics, who aren't shy about kicking the dog when it lies down. I need some Life of the Party folks to keep the party going!

Looking forward to the feedback-

Thanks-

[bdurham]

Just a couple of things off the top of my head.

First thing I'd suggest is culling the deadwood from the site. Some of these forums haven't been updated since 2009. At present the board looks bloated. People coming here will see all this inactivity and figure little is happening and move on.

Another big problem is the lack of interaction from the people who represent the various publishers, like Chizine. What's the sense of having a presence only to promote and not answer queries? One only has to look at the original Flashing Swords site to see how successful interaction can be. Perhaps a requirement for publishers before they can create a forum here is to promise to provide fresh content on a reasonable basis and 'interact'.

Also, it's good to see you have a new review editor. I sent in a review last year and never received a response, nor was it ever posted. Hopefully this will improve.

[Dave]

If you still have the review, please email to me and I'll get it posted.

Trimming the dead wood was included on the recommendation.

I'd read in another thread that as authors gain more experience and publications, they tend to "outgrow" SFReader, citing how they have private forums and newsgroups else where. SFReader can do Private forums - anyone interested?

I'd alse read the SFReader needed to decide on its "niche". It seemed to self-develop into a community for new writers and small press puiblisher, although it did so without any intenet on my part. SFReader was built, first and foremost, for reviews of science fictin, fantasy and horror books. That was always the intent. It seemed to fracture under the old site. Some of the forum regualr didn't even know about the whoel review side of SFReader. I was hoping the forum woudl change that by integrating everything, but no go so far. Any thought here?

Considering:
Member Fiction forum, complete stories only. Good ones will be promoted by me or another mod to Front Page status.
Member Reviews forum, where member can post their own reviews of books and movies. Again, moderators can promote well done reviews to the Front Page.
Migrating reviews from the old site (http://sfreader.com/) to the vBulletin forum

What else?

[John M. Whalen]

This version of the forum has more features than the old one, so I don't know if adding even more is going to help. Maybe get rid of some? Like Bruce said, get rid of the dead ones. I think the thing to remember is that this forum's hey day was when it was in the control of people who were out to promote Flashing Swords, (both incarnations) Pitch Black Books and Abandoned Towers. They've all deserted the ship and until somebody like that comes along to take over, I think this forum is just going to drift into oblivion, much as I hate to say it.

[Dave]

Hey John,

That might be so, but sfreviews.net, sfsite.com, and sffworld.com are very, very active simply with the fans. The writer/publisher population is a fraction of people who simply enjoy reading the books and watching the movies. How can we get more fans involved?

[bdurham]

Hey John,

That might be so, but sfreviews.net, sfsite.com, and sffworld.com are very, very active simply with the fans. The writer/publisher population is a fraction of people who simply enjoy reading the books and watching the movies. How can we get more fans involved?

Good question. Threads certainly get the 'views'. We just need to get these folks to actually 'talk'.

[Jaqhama]

I've visited all the other SFF forum websites at one time or another and the reason I always come back here is because no one puts up posts like...What's your fave SF novel...or can you recommend me a fantasy book.
That's like...yaaaaaawwwwwnnnnn.
And you see it all the time on the other forums.

What the other forums don't have and in fact many really hate to see it....is shameless self-promotion threads.

Now John's correct when he says that SF Reader peaked when we had a lot of sword and sorcery folk, writers mainly, posting up here.

So I'm going to put a different idea out here now.

What about starting a SF reader section just for SFF/horror/cross genre novel writers.
With a few rules.
They must post a proper introduction and writing history.
They can advertise their novel but it must accompanied by the first fifty pages, including the front cover, free for all to read, and comment on if readers want to so. A link where people can buy the novel if they like the first fifty pages.
A new thread for each writer/novel.
Making them aware from the outset that if the editing isn't up to scratch then they're not going to be doing themselves any favours. And if the writing is truly bad then it will be removed from the site altogether. (We can have a poll for things like that, so the readers decide.)
Once a month we have a poll to delete the badly written novels.
Once a month we have a poll to recommend the best fifty page segments people have read.
The best from the month's poll get assigned a new page...recommended novels.
We'll let the readers judge all this, not the staff of SF reader, so then there's no come back on us.
We start a public critique section where aspiring writers can post up their short stories or novel chapters and get feedback and suggestions.
We encourage writers who already have published novels advertised at SF Reader to pop in and help new writers.

In short it will be a SFF version of the Absolute Write forum, but just for SFF/horror/cross genre writing.

Readers who buy books by the authors they have sampled here at SF reader can vote on the best novel they have read from the collection at the end of each year.
We'll work out some prize to give the winner(s).

The new section will be a completely separate page from the rest of the forum, although there will of course be a link from the main forum.

SF Writer.
New writers, new stories, new books.

I think that a lot of small press publishers might well get behind this, and even some of the bigger publishers.
It will be a place anyone can go to find new indie SFF/horror/cross genre...as opposed to trolling the web, looking at dozens of different websites or forums that have only a tiny section for self-promotion.

Sure, we're going to have in the majority self-published indie ebook authors, but at least it will be a place they can come to and not be derided because they've self-published a SFF/horror/cross genre novel.
And I don't think any other website is offering the first fifty pages of anyone's novel on a regular basis.

I also think we could email the small press and large press publishers and see if they want to get in on this...free advertising for them....and if they want they can pay to have a full colour advertisement/link for their books...down both sides of the self-promotion main page section.
They can send us synopsis' of their writers stories, interviews etc, even have their own forum section if they want.

I envision a place where the authors can talk to the readers about their novels...in fact a staying point will be that they MUST return on a regular basis and answer readers/fans questions about their book offerings.
If they simply come here and then disappear...say no response to a reader's/fan's question after 28 days (using the zombie movie here for inspiration) then their thread entry is deleted.
The same rule for small press publishers and big press publishers...if they're not going to interact with the readers/fans then they're out.
28 Days after a question is asked or the last post entry by someone else goes unanswered…they’re gone.
This will be a working community, not just a place to spam your books.

Well...that's about all I can come up with at the moment...although I don't see why we can't also have a section for SFF/horror/cross genre movie screenwriters and video game writers as well.


I’m sure more devious minds than my own can work out a way to make some money from the above.

Maybe it’s time to start a new project.
Let’s face it, SF Watcher is all but dead.
People want to read about the latest movies, not ones that have been on DVD for ten years.


I’ll leave it with you.

Cheers: Jaq

[John M. Whalen]

Hey John,

That might be so, but sfreviews.net, sfsite.com, and sffworld.com are very, very active simply with the fans. The writer/publisher population is a fraction of people who simply enjoy reading the books and watching the movies. How can we get more fans involved?

I suppose the thing to do is do what sffworld and the others do. They review and talk about all the stuff coming out from major publishers written by big name authors. Maybe SFReader could do the same thing but just focus on indy, small press and self-published authors. Frankly I find the sites you mention boring. The biggies already get all the damn press they need. Why suck up to them? These sites seem to ignore what's going in what I've been calling the Neo-Pulp Electronic Revolution. I think if SFREADER focused on what's being done on line and in the small press area in the sf, horror, and cross genre field, it might find a very wide and very interested audience. And I like Jaq's suggestion of letting writers promote their work with covers and samples. Give readers a taste of what's out there.

[Jaqhama]

We will of course include anthologies, in those cases we'll have to make do with a brief synopsis by the publisher or author for each story, as most of them won't run anywhere near 50 pages in length.

And my good buddy John is correct...none of the 'big' SF sites focus that much attention on the new generation of ebook authors.

There's little point in following the same path the other SFF websites are already travelling along, much better if we can contribute something new and innovative that no one else is doing.

Neo-Pulp Electronic Revolution. That's very good, mate. You may well have coined a new, usable term there.

Oh yeah. I went and checked out a few SFF sites on Facebook. (The sacrifices I make!)
It's a freaking nightmare of re-posted blog site info.
Publishers/Authors advertising their books with nothing more than a quick blurb and a link to Amazon Kindle or another ebook publisher.
I certainly don't see Facebook as an alternative to any SFF Forum site.
In fact a well known UK SF author said in an email to me just this week, that he and other professional UK fiction writers he knows don't like, and have no intention, of adding to the 'maelstrom' that is the Facebook website.
They feel they can better serve their readers by having their own blog sites and comments section.

As soon as I finished faffing about on Facebook I deleted the account.

[Samuel Mae]

What about starting a SF reader section just for SFF/horror/cross genre novel writers.
With a few rules.
They must post a proper introduction and writing history.
They can advertise their novel but it must accompanied by the first fifty pages, including the front cover, free for all to read, and comment on if readers want to so. A link where people can buy the novel if they like the first fifty pages.
A new thread for each writer/novel.
Making them aware from the outset that if the editing isn't up to scratch then they're not going to be doing themselves any favours. And if the writing is truly bad then it will be removed from the site altogether. (We can have a poll for things like that, so the readers decide.)
Once a month we have a poll to delete the badly written novels.
Once a month we have a poll to recommend the best fifty page segments people have read.
The best from the month's poll get assigned a new page...recommended novels.
We'll let the readers judge all this, not the staff of SF reader, so then there's no come back on us.
We start a public critique section where aspiring writers can post up their short stories or novel chapters and get feedback and suggestions.
We encourage writers who already have published novels advertised at SF Reader to pop in and help new writers.

In short it will be a SFF version of the Absolute Write forum, but just for SFF/horror/cross genre writing.

Actually, that doesn't sound at all like Absolute Write (with the exception of the critique section, which is password-protected to stop search engine bots from accessing it, as well as non-registered members; for purposes of full disclosure, i'm a moderator over there). A critique section could work here, but the problem with crit sites of any sort is that they're very difficult to moderate. There are an awful lot of would-be writers around who are very thin-skinned, and a lot of internet critiquers who think they are holy grails of harshly-dispensed (but often very poor) writing advice.

Jaq, i like your idea re showcasing covers and samples. There are plenty of display sites around, but focusing on a niche could work well, and having it within an already existing forum setup might give SFReader an edge. Writers' who showcase their stuff would have to be prepared for negative reviews, though. Perhaps a non-public rating pol for each thread (which the thread starter isn't allowed to choose an option in) might work, or an adaption of the existing 'rate this thread'?

I like John's idea of keeping with the review theme and focusing on small press and self-pubbers, too. As long as the reviews were objective, of course, and not all 5 stars and copious praise where it wasn't deserved There's not much that frustrates me about reviews more than when the writer is obviously going out of their way to praise. Unfortunately, i see that quite a lot on self-pub review blogs. It's all 'yeah, we're fighting the Man together, so let's all make sure we're a team' when the writer would be benefited much more in the long room from an objective (which isn't necessarily negative) review.

But i shall not rant. I do like the review aspect, particularly as that would be in keeping with SFReader's existing name.

Dave, I don't think you need to upgrade the site. It's already very shiny. Perhaps too shiny. I know the visitor and private messaging system confused hell out of me for a while. Maybe a pruning of all the Publishers' and Authors' subforums that no longer get used (which is almost all of them, isn't it?), might be somewhere to start? Just a suggestion (as everything in my post is), of course.

To tangent completely now. On the Facebook thang, the very nature of Facebook means it doesn't work well as anything other than a social media tool (chatting with friends, posting pics, sharing jokes, sharing links, etc). I have a Facebook author's page, and yeah, i just post links to blog posts and let people know when i've made a sale, and post pics of covers. There's not much else you can do. Some zines (like Daily SF) use Facebook effectively as a place for readers to comment on stories, but that only works because Facebook has so many active users. In ten years, it'll probably be gone the way of its predecessors. Facebook isn't useful as a forum, either, particularly because of the way it presents and stores data.

[Jaqhama]

Thanks for your thoughts, Samuel.
It was the critique section at Absolute Write that I was mainly thinking of when I wrote my piece.

I get your point about 'everyone's a critic', even if they couldn't tell Bradbury from Mack Bolan.
Could get messy, you're right.
Have to put some more thought into that.
I like the bit about being a registered member and not having the critique section open to the public.

Maybe just a poll to vote for the best 10 sample 50 pages every month, which then promotes the novels to a seperate page?
Something like that.

Cheers: Jaq

[John M. Whalen]

Sam,

I couldn't agree with you more about some amateur reviewers. I prefer good reviews, even if the reviewer seems to be giving everybody passing grades, but sometimes a bad review can turn out good. I had one reviewer target my story in a print magazine as the worst in the issue and the review ended with a warning to "avoid this story." Turned out the warning drew everybody's attention to that story and I got more favorable comment on it from readers than almost anything else I've written. But I wasn't talking about just a review section in the sense of critiques. Honest reviews would be a good idea, but I'm thinking in terms more of something of a round up or notification of what's happening out there in the world of small press, indy and self-published authors. There is a lot going on on the Web these days. The idea would be to send the word out to all those editors of ezines to drop SFREADER a weekly summary of what they're offering, so SFREADER could become like a directory that readers can consult. Also previews of coming attractions. What's in the pipeline. The Neo-Pulp Electronic Revolution was a term I coined when I was slushing at Raygun Revival, where it became obvious that there are a lot of writers out there breaking new ground mainly through Internet publications. It's kind of an underground movement, and even though most of these zines done't pay much if anything, there's talent out there that needs more recognition.

[Jennifer P]

Thing is, right now, SFreader is providing an important service.

SFFworld is a great site for readers, but it does not allow writers and publishers to promote. At all. That is, of course, because it sells advertising - and many of us can't afford that.

I just looked at SFFsite - and it's, if anything, deader than here.

I realize it started as a review site, but perhaps the niche is to be a place where people come to find new writers. That embraces reviews, it embraces interaction with writers and publishers. SFFWorld is a good place to find writers who are already well known. And while it's active, I don't read most of the threads there because it's so crowded.

I would be quite upset if this forum closed.

John Whalen seems to have some good ideas.

[Dave]

Good feedback all, and greatly appreciated.

We used to have a moderated crit section for SnS writers, private too. It's easy enough to set something like that up. But have a palce to do it is the tip of an iceburg.

I'd have to give some analysis to Jaq's book promo idea, figure out the flow. One thing I've discovered is that it's hard to regulate and rate community content. Easy enough for someone to register, post their excerpt, then get their friends, family and use fake accounts to inflate a rating. Having to pay for something is a very effective gateway, so it might be as simple as having a forum for these excerpts where people have to pay to post their books. The catch here is that if there's not a large enough community to make it worthwhile, then no one will pay to post. I'll ahve to think abotu this. Might be start out with it being free, see if it catches on.....

I do think there's a huge population of people doing some publishing now that might be willing to try something like that out. I know I've toyed myself with the idea of publishing my backlist of shorts on teh kindle and trying to sell them for 99 cents each.

As far as forum changes, it's not more bells and whistles really, it's more about makign the current bells and whistles easier to use and more a part of the community. Streamlining navigation, a nicer more custom look, bigger awards, a reason to ffer feedback and reputation, etc.

Still brainstomring, but I'm hearing soem good ideas!

UPDATE:
Snip snip snip!

I just completed some major pruning of the forums.....

[Samuel Mae]

Thanks for your thoughts, Samuel.
It was the critique section at Absolute Write that I was mainly thinking of when I wrote my piece.

I get your point about 'everyone's a critic', even if they couldn't tell Bradbury from Mack Bolan.
Could get messy, you're right.
Have to put some more thought into that.
I like the bit about being a registered member and not having the critique section open to the public.

Maybe just a poll to vote for the best 10 sample 50 pages every month, which then promotes the novels to a seperate page?
Something like that.

Cheers: Jaq

I see Dave's point about how the system could be easily gamed. I know that happens on Authonomy. Often the novels that rate well there are far from the best, but their authors happen to have the most time on their hands to game the system.

Honest reviews would be a good idea, but I'm thinking in terms more of something of a round up or notification of what's happening out there in the world of small press, indy and self-published authors. There is a lot going on on the Web these days. The idea would be to send the word out to all those editors of ezines to drop SFREADER a weekly summary of what they're offering, so SFREADER could become like a directory that readers can consult. Also previews of coming attractions. What's in the pipeline.

Ah, i understand. I like that idea!

UPDATE:
Snip snip snip!

I just completed some major pruning of the forums.....

Feels far less empty already

[Jordan Lapp]

Thanks for your thoughts, Samuel.
I get your point about 'everyone's a critic', even if they couldn't tell Bradbury from Mack Bolan.

Cheers: Jaq

Of course, you're aware that our very own Nathan Meyers, former SFReader regular, has written something like 10 Mack Bolan novels...

[Jaqhama]

Of course, you're aware that our very own Nathan Meyers, former SFReader regular, has written something like 10 Mack Bolan novels...

Yeah, I know.

[jason]

Been a while, nice to see there's still some life in the old gal yet...

I think the ideas presented here have a lot of merit, and hope they are able to boost use of the site. One thing I've noticed on other boards is a minimum requirement of a certain number of posts before they can do X, Y or Z. That might be a way to limit those that can vote on the top ten books posted that month to get them to front page status, etc. It would keep out those that want to just fly by and promote their own (through family or phony logins).

Another helpful thing for down the line if promotion becomes a driving force that I've seen elsewhere would be a sticky thread that provides a tutorial for how to make your signature. A basic here's how to make a link using BBC or whatnot. I did mine using my limited Google-fu, but it might make new visitors feel welcomed.

As far as Nathan goes, maybe someone here could get him to come back and do some posting. He was always good for getting a thread rolling and keeping discussion lively.

[Jordan Lapp]

I'm still in limited contact with Nate through IAMTW and I know that he's got a lot on his plate right now.

Also, holy hell, I just found out how much a Bolan novel pays. $2K for 60K words. No royalties. Wow.

[Jaqhama]

No one's getting rich writing for Gold Eagle, except the publisher, maybe.

I envison it won't be long until they release their massive backlist as ebooks...and I don't expect the authors to get a penny from them.