Different Companies

[Lynn Louis]

Good idea for a board, Dave.

Those of you who follow my reviews on SFReader know I do a lot of POD books. I mainly do this to help out Dave, becasue POD books are hard to place, yet from what he's told me, they are by far the most common type of book people are submitting to get reviews.

There is definitely a difference between companies. For example, iUniverse seems to be several cuts above the average POD publisher. I don't know if they have a different submission process or not.

The rest of the POD books I've read are a mixed bag, with the vast majority being pretty poor. 1st Books Library definitely seems to be a house that will publish anything if you've got the dough. I've yet to find a decent book from them.

My advice to new writers would be to stay away from POD publishers. If you keep writing and keep improving, I don't think it will be held against you in the future, but it's definitely not going to help you if you list it on your resume.

Go the standard submission route first and if it doens't get picked up, put in the drawer. Maybe a few years later, from you new vantage point as a more experience author, you will be able to see it's flaws. And of course while it's making the rounds, you will have already started your next one, right?

[FraserR]

The unfortunate thing is, no matter how good the story is, it is painted with the same brush as its fellows. I have a bias against PoD and ebook publishers. I have that bias because I have seen a fair number of their product and I am not impressed. There have been some that rise above the rest, that I think are good enough for mainstream publishers, and there's the rub--good enough for mainstream publishers.

Even if Lada had produced a car that was as good as a Jaguar, who would want to try it out? Especially if it cost the same (or more!) as the Jag?

I aim to get published in the mainstream. It's about money, and I'm not afraid to say it. If it was only about art--truly about art--and sharing my 'gift,' with the world, there are ways that don't cost me any money and don't cost the reader any money either. Anything else, to me, seems like vanity.


---
Fraser Ronald, Editor
"Sword's Edge" http://www.swordsedge.net/

[Dave]

I've a mixed opinion on print on demand. As far as novels go, I think they are a mistake. There are quite a few novel publishers out there, small press incuded, who don't charge you and might even put a little something in your pocket. Don't ever settle for POD when it comes to a novel.
Anthos are a different stoery I think. They are traditionally hard sells. If you'r not Stephen King or Dean Koontz or some other bog name author, no big house is going to publish a collection of your work. Some small press houses might take a chance, provided you have a decent track record of small and semi-pro publications.

I'm an exact example of this. Writers of the Future winnerm Chiaroscuro story contest winner, a handful of small press, semi-pro pubs.... but my chances of getting an antho published are pretty doggone slim.

From that perspective, POD is tempting. I'm convinced a book of my stories would be enjoyed by the majority of speculative ficiton fans out there, but I'm not well enough to have ingrained marketing in my name and no company is going to spend much money trying to get a book by me on the shelves.

I could POD it, and get a decent product and send it to a dozen reviewers and get it on BnN and Amazon, and, if I got good reviews, what? Sell 100 copies? No return on that.

The whole industry is rather frustrating.....

[David Hart]

>>I could POD it, and get a decent product and send it to a dozen reviewers and get it on BnN and Amazon,
>>and, if I got good reviews, what? Sell 100 copies? No return on that.
Because each copy would sell for $15 plus, yet little of that would reach your bank account. However $15 is more than enough to prevent an impulse buy.

Now consider a different scenario. You publish electronically on your web-site, perhaps with the 1st story free, and the rest at very low cost, say 20 cents for the book. Instead of 100*$2 you get 10,000 downloads = $2000, but more importantly 10k people who will buy your work in future and tell all their friends.

The necessary condition is that the price must be trivial so as not to deter the casual reader, and that means that someone must set up a viable, cheap system for micro-payments. It would have to be a very large, trusted institution or public-spirited company, willing to do this for little return, pro bono publico. Hmm. Microsoft perhaps? []

[Lynn Louis]

Fictionwise is already doing that. You can get a story for under a dollar. Don't know if they authors are making any money, or if any study has been done to determine if being there is beneficial to your name though....

[Holly Watt]

I'm so new I've never published anything anywhere at all! []

So how can someone with little experience like me tell whether a small publisher would be a real one or what I guess writers mean by vanity publishers?

[EdK]

Holly,

Vanity publishers expect you to pay for printing your book and most of the marketing. Real publisher's pay you, pay for the printing, and do a good bit of the marketing. If a publisher asks you for money, then don't just back away, turn tail and run the other direction.

To All:

I must express my concern, once more, over the terminology being used here. POD and Vanity Press are not synonymous. 1st Books and iUniverse are vanity presses, not POD publishers. Technically speaking, there is no such thing as a "POD publisher". POD is a print technology, not a form of publishing. There are many legitimate presses taking advantage of POD technology, and there are many vanity presses who still use offset press technology. Many small publishers, university publishers, and even some smaller imprints published by the big guys, use POD print technology.

Let's not get the two confused. "POD" is a machine that produces books at resonable prices a few at a time. "Vanity press" is a publisher that charges writers to publish their books. (They often use POD printing technology, I agree). The two are not, however, the same thing. There are many writers who may become confused over the matter as it is dicussed here, and I don't want them to be. Writers should fear vanity presses, hide from them, avoid them at all costs. POD, on the other hand, is not a dirty word. In fact it can be quite usefull and pratical for many "real" publishers and work for the benefit of "real" writers as well. Don't be afraid of the word "POD". It's just a new way to print a book. "Vanity Press" is a long and well established way to relieve you of your hard earned cash.



Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine

http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com

[Dave]

Succinctly: POD is a technology, Vanity Press is a publishing model.


Dave
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[Shrews]

heh...the stories to tell...

For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard

[Shrews]

Alot of PODs are vanity pubs and pretend to be bigger pubs.

For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard

[unclepete]

Thank you, EdK for the clarification of the terminology -- as a small press publisher, I use POD technology to get my books out there, but I am not a vanity press. I pay authors, and I don't consider myself a "POD publisher." The term makes no sense - I am a publisher, small and royalty paying.

To authors who are considering using self-publishing technology, or a company that uses POD technology, I would echo what others have said - run like the wind if a publisher wants to charge you. For those who are considering publishers that use POD technology, be aware and ask them some questions when it comes to marketing and distribution.

As a f'rinstance - Publish America is not a vanity publisher, but they use POD technology to sell books - so far so good. However, to a bookseller, their books are non-returnable, which means no bookseller will ever stock them in-house. Ask your publisher before you sign the contract if their books are returnable, and whether they have a plan to get them in stores. I am a big fan of online ordering, but it's nice to see your book on a store shelf, and many people wil not buy it without a chance to thumb through it, and even smell it -- which is a whole other topic.[]

There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people. -- Muhammad Ali

[EdK]

Unclepete,

I'd certainly like to hear more about your publishing efforts.

Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine

http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com

[unclepete]

Hi EdK,

Gladly. Creative Guy Publishing (CGP) is a small press publisher. Originally we did strictly ebooks, and I have dealt with the big boy distrubutors and digital rights managers (such as Content reserve) and tried to do pursue some original creative ideas with publishing (flashbooks were kicked around as an idea, and a good friend of mine has had some success with those at Project M publishing). Alas that this is a hard market to add new ideas to.
After a year or so of lessons learned, regarding book people and ebook people, and "user fees" added by our original distrubutors, we have dropped CR and deal with fictionwise now for ebook distribution (and a nicer, more helpful group of folks you're not likely to find).

I created the Liaison Press imprint to make cooperative efforts with other (print only) publishers possible. We e-published Jim Dougherty's autobio To Norma Jean with Love through this venue (the print title comes from BeachHouse Books). LP has also become our non-fiction imprint.

When I started looking into print publishing, I looked at "traditional" printers and POD printers like lulu and Lightning Source. For our purposes, we went with your least favourite, Ed, that is LSI. I know a lot of booksellers have problems with Ingrams, as do publishers, but for our purposes, LSI's printing prices couldn't be touched. We're still new in the game when it comes to print, with one title out, and 3 more slated for the coming year. I had read what you wrote about Ingram's as a distributor, and I don't have any experience with them as a distributor only - maybe their LSI customers get a better deal - but I haven't had any problems from them. Even their new stocking strategy hasn't negatively impacted us.

I will say that I am heartily in agreement with your sentiments with the publishing industry as a whole. Especially when it comes to ebooks - as long as they price ebooks to match their print release dates (hardcover prices until the paperback comes out etc) the ebook inudstry will never be able to come into its own. The big boys own the game, but we finally have some options to put out quality books that can be taken seriously. Just gotta get 'em to the right readers.

But that's a whole different thread. []

We've never intended to do more than that - CGP's main business goal is to be self-sustaining and pay authors a fair royalty. Small staff and POD make that possible so far.

There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people. -- Muhammad Ali

[EdK]

Thanks Unclepete,

Sounds as if you have a good thing going and a realistic business plan in place. We're working your plan backwards with plans to do small print versions first with possible e-book reprints in the future. The big houses usually go hardcover (or trade paper) and then mass marker paper. We intend to do short run trade paper and then use ebook as our "mass market". What formats do you use for your ebooks? I'm assuming .pdf (Acrobat Reader)files are most common. Good luck to you. I hope you continue to hang around this board and check back from time to time. Your input would be appreciated.


Edward Knight
Editor
Journey Books Publishing
Amazing Journeys Magazine

http://www.journeybookspublishing.com
http://www.journeybooksonline.com

[unclepete]

Thanks EdK, I think I will...[]

Feel free to email me through my profile on the boards, or we can start an ebook discussoin somewhere in here I guess. I'll gladly share what I've learned about the ebook market in the last couple years.



There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people. -- Muhammad Ali

[JStarfire]

I do understand the comments and underlying hostility that authours have towards self-publication through vanity presses.

With that said, I'm going to vent some frustration []

My fiance and I chose to publish her fantasy book through iUniverse. We played the "find an agent" game for about a year. Having played this game personally with my screenwriting career for about three years, it didn't take me long to throw up my hands with her dozens of rejection letters. And its not that we can't take rejection letters. As writers, rejection is something you are forced to swallow. It is part of the industry.

And the industry is exactly why we chose self-publication. There are so many people trying to get into the publishing industry that Kas and I decided to try our hand at sneaking her book in the backdoor. That's how we have approached being published through iUniverse: It's merely a step towards the ultimate goal, not the goal itself.

It's so exasperating for an authour to get their story out there. I work in a bookstore, and there is just as much crap on the bookshelves as there is trying to be self-published. The difference is, the self-ublished crap doesn't sell (as it shouldn't) while the crap put out by traditional publishers manages to find its way into the hands of consumers.

We approached self-publication of her book as a way to prove to a traditional publisher (small or large) that her book is worth investing in. I do agree that far too many authours look at self-publishing as the solution to the traditional publisher problem. It isn't. Unless you have got some decent connections (which we both do) and a willingness to push your book, self-publishing through any means will be a disaster both for the authour's reputation and their book.

Kas and I have sold over fifty copies of her book in the two months it has been out. According to reports I've read on averages, we've already done in two months what takes most self-published authours a lifetime to achieve. We've attended local sci-fi/fantasy conventions and gaming stores, spoken at the community college, and she has gotten the regional grocery store chain to set up book events.

The one thing that does scare me from all this negative press towards vanity presses is the perception that books tht are self-published are bad in terms of not only story, but grammar and style. I am afraid that this bias will come into play when her book is read by reviwers and industry professionals because her book was written in-world, in a grammar that is meant to give the reader the atmosphere that they are reading something translated into English by a character out of that universe.

What I'm trying to say is that we made the choice to self-publish through iUniverse so that we could be selling books while trying to find a traditional publisher...

...and I hate agents (the job, not actual people). Twice we almost gotten taken by agencies who were only looking to rip her off (and that's not including the screenwriting agency that DID sucker me for a coupe of months during that same period). The rest of the agencies did little more than not respond to query letters or simply sent form letters hot off their copying machines. They say "It's my job to weed out the good from the bad" and I say to them "Who are you to tell me that a book/story isn't good enough when you haven't even read the book?" Too many middle-men and red-tape to get to the publishers.. too many people that want the next big thing to fall into their laps and are willing to overlook something different and more original than a lot of what makes it to the book shelves.. too many people who think they know what people want to read..

...No one wants to take a risk anymore. And it's frustrating because everyone who has bought the book and READ the book has thouroughly enjoyed the book AND it's accented grammar.

So, yeah, we self-published, because we weren't ready to throw her book into a drawer and forget about it for a few years. That gives agents and the big publishers way too much power over her and my goals to entertain people through our art. We will be happy to sell a hundred book and buuild the book's reputation. Because query that start with "Hi, I've got a fantasy novel that's sold a hundred copies in six months" will probably carry much more weight in this financially bottom-line world than "Hi, I've got a fantasy novel."

And the more agencies and big publishers that continue to reject authours, the more authours will continue to seek their own fortunes and/or prove the worth of their stories through self-publishing.

Josh "Red 84" Radke

www.red84.com (My site)
www.krinolium.com (The Official Site of the Shadow of the Stars fantasy series)

[unclepete]

Jstarfire,

and to volley back for your understanding of the comments and hostility, I do understand your experiences as well --

Many people choose to go the route that you and your fiancee have gone with POD/self-publishing. The difference, i think, is that you have gone in with eyes wide open, making a conscious choice to use the tools available to you through POD, and you have realistic ideas and a marketing plan (more importantly you are taking a very active role in marketing your book. good on you for going to the conventions!) There's another author on these boards, aurelio, who has done rpetty much the same thing with his novel, and for much the same reasons you have listed.

The unforunate part, and the part that makes authors concerned is the huge amount of scams out there, and some very close to false promises used in the advertising of many "vanity" houses. You nkow the difference and have obviously done your research -- I hope it works out well for you, and I think you've really done well so far in the self-promotion aspect.

Congratulations. [] If people are enjoying the book, word of mouth is still a powerful advertiser. Oh -- and have you sent in a review copy yet?

It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man.-- H. L. Mencken

[JStarfire]

Phew.. could you tell by the stellar spelling of my last paragraph of my post that I was running late for getting back to work? []

Anyway, thanks for the response unclepete. I haven't submitted a book for review for the concerns I spelled out in the "Shadow of the Stars" thread in the Shameless Self-Promotion section. With all this hostility towards self-published books, I'm a bit concerned the book won't get a fair shake because of its unusual style. On top of that, there are indeed typos in the book. While they haven't bothered the people who have read her book so far (and we've asked them this specifically), I'm quite sure that the book will take a bad hit because there are more than there would be in a traditionally published novel.. and thus there's more than a good possibility that the accented style of the book will be interpreted as part of the typos.

(The typos came about because English isn't my fiancee's first language. Although she speaks it fine, she still has issues writing in it. If we would have had the three grand to copyedit the book line-by-line, we certainly would have. But we didn't.)

And that is the only reason we haven't submitted the book for review. As far as the book's storyline and characters go, we are more than ready to have a reviewer give their balanced or unbalanced pros and cons.

Josh "Red 84" Radke

www.red84.com (My site)
www.krinolium.com (The Official Site of the Shadow of the Stars fantasy series)

[ragemachine]

I've waited a while before replying to this topic. I don't want to seem too self-serving here. This isn't the "Shamless Self-Promotion" section. But I do feel I need to comment as a POD publisher. I run RAGE m a c h i n e Books. (www.lulu.com/ragemachinebooks) Lulu is the company that prints my books. I select the material, I edit it. That's how POD works. For $15.99 plus postage you can buy one of my books. The cover will look as good as anything you find in a store. The writing inside, hopefully will also please.

The reason I felt I needed to speak up for POD as a phenomenon is because there is a shift going on in publishing. All the mid-list stuff is getting the shaft. You either sell millions or you get slave $. There is no inbetween anymore. Publishers are not interested in books that sell 25,000 copies anymore. This is the area where many respected writers like Spider Robinson got their start. Some, like George Alec Effinger, never really left that zone. They were well liked, had their fan base, but never wrote anything that sold 2,000,000 copies.

This change in publishing (largely due to the corporization of the industy) has left many good writers no where to go. Fortunately technology has saved the day. With POD you can now find many specialized genres and books that big publishers aren't interested in. For example, my book MAGISTRIA: REALM OF THE SORCERER has been getting good reviews and buyers seem very happy with it. It is a Sword & Sorcery anthology, a shared world book. Big publishers don't want shared worlds, they won't even breath the words "Sword and Sorcery". Despite this there are many fans who love the sub-genre. Their best chance to find any S&S is either with small press like Wildside Press or a POD publisher like RAGE m a c h i n e. You try one of our books, you like them, you come back. That is the process that will eventually filter out the bad product in the POD circles. Buy books from POD publishers who have pleased you before. Develop a taste for the writers they gather to them. Their success is your reading enjoyment.

GW

G. W. Thomas has appeared in over 350 different books, magazines and ezines including Black October Magazine, Writer's Digest and The Armchair Detective.

http://ragemachinemag.tripod.com

[jcdelatorre]

[b]quote:Originally posted by ragemachine

I've waited a while before replying to this topic. I don't want to seem too self-serving here. This isn't the "Shamless Self-Promotion" section. But I do feel I need to comment as a POD publisher. I run RAGE m a c h i n e Books. (www.lulu.com/ragemachinebooks) Lulu is the company that prints my books. I select the material, I edit it. That's how POD works. For $15.99 plus postage you can buy one of my books. The cover will look as good as anything you find in a store. The writing inside, hopefully will also please.

The reason I felt I needed to speak up for POD as a phenomenon is because there is a shift going on in publishing. All the mid-list stuff is getting the shaft. You either sell millions or you get slave $. There is no inbetween anymore. Publishers are not interested in books that sell 25,000 copies anymore. This is the area where many respected writers like Spider Robinson got their start. Some, like George Alec Effinger, never really left that zone. They were well liked, had their fan base, but never wrote anything that sold 2,000,000 copies.

This change in publishing (largely due to the corporization of the industy) has left many good writers no where to go. Fortunately technology has saved the day. With POD you can now find many specialized genres and books that big publishers aren't interested in. For example, my book MAGISTRIA: REALM OF THE SORCERER has been getting good reviews and buyers seem very happy with it. It is a Sword & Sorcery anthology, a shared world book. Big publishers don't want shared worlds, they won't even breath the words "Sword and Sorcery". Despite this there are many fans who love the sub-genre. Their best chance to find any S&S is either with small press like Wildside Press or a POD publisher like RAGE m a c h i n e. You try one of our books, you like them, you come back. That is the process that will eventually filter out the bad product in the POD circles. Buy books from POD publishers who have pleased you before. Develop a taste for the writers they gather to them. Their success is your reading enjoyment.

GW

G. W. Thomas has appeared in over 350 different books, magazines and ezines including Black October Magazine, Writer's Digest and The Armchair Detective.

http://ragemachinemag.tripod.com
</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


I too am a Lulu and my experience has been great. They have an association with Ingram/Lightning Source so Ingram DOES stock the books, my book will be on Amazon and all the other typical websites. There books are very good quality. I can't tell the difference between my book and any book you'd find on the shelf in Barnes&Nobles (except for the size - 6x9).

Lulu is not a POD company. They are not a vanity press. They are simply a technology company that gives independent publishers the ability to produce their books.

They won't do everything for you like IUniverse - you actually have to work to sell your book - but they do give you the tools to succeed.

JC De La Torre
-------------------------
Author of Ancient Rising
http://www.delatorrewriting.com

[Alan.TheWord]

I'd like to give another quick vote for Lulu. Complete control, no cost and I've been getting good reviews and sales.

Alan
www.alanbaxter.info

[cussedness]

I have 13 novels out in ebook from Renaissance Ebooks and one out in tradepaper from Wildside, which is a small press that uses PoD technology.

Next year my Dark brothers of the Light will come out in PoD editions from Renebooks. I seem to be the exception to a lot of the rules in that I sell 100 copies a month in ebook. And more than that the month that a new book comes out.

I think the important thing is to consider the publishing house that you are being published by. Not all ebook and PoD publishers are in the same league. Renebooks promotes heavily and that is reflected in the numbers sold. Not all ebook/PoD houses promote their books. You don't want to come out from a company that routinely orphans their books.

The mid list is not dead or dying with the majors. That is actually a false rumor. Back in the 80s and 90s when all the corporate buyouts were occuring, the houses had the great idea that they should jettison the midlist and they did. However, that resulted in substantially depleted profits and the midlist, because it produced dependable sales, was slowly ressurected.

According to Publisher's Weekly, the midlist is healthier now than it has been in nearly twenty years. Between 75% and 90% of all books published are midlist titles. Leisure and Kensington make their money by selling dozens of titles a month that will sell in midlist numbers.

The midlist is far from dead. Because of the higher cost of production, deep discounts to retailers demanded by the superstores, and other expenses, the majors are more reluctant to invest in new authors.

Some companies like Ace/Berkeley are in fact picking up and reprinting novels that originally came out in ebook. Mary Janice Davidson is one example of this. Of course, the ebooks they are picking up are in the upper brackets of sales figures.

Janrae Frank
I have no skeletons in my closet, they are all hanging from the yardarm.

Once there were three brothers, Brandrahoon the vampire, Isranon called the Dawnhand, speaker to spirits, and Waejonan the Accursed, first of sa?necari. Isranon defied his brothers and was destroyed, his descendants forced into the darkness.

Blood Rites
www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook29989.htm
website
www.janraefrank.com
Darkzone
darkzone.yuku.com

[nathan]

cussedness said...

Of course, the ebooks they are picking up are in the upper brackets of sales figures.

Janrae (or anyone who happens to know) what does this mean for ebooks? That is what is 'upper bracket' in this part of the publishing world? Just curious.




VIEW IMAGE
"Writing the wet dreams of teenage boys" - Lindsey Llyod, Tangent Reviews

Tarantino himself has been forward and unapologetic about his influences. In a 1994 interview with Empire magazine, he said, "I steal from every single movie ever made. If people don't like that, then tough tills, don't go and see it, all right? I steal from everything. Great artists steal, they don't do homages."

[Crowell]

I am wondering about this particular company located in Belgium

http://www.publishyourself.com/index.asp

If you don't win the upcoming Halloween contest the top ten runner ups get into an Ebook anthology but i couldnt really find anywhere in the rules that say exactly how long they hold the rights TO your story so that at a later date you can send it someplace else for a chance to get into print (and paid)

Unless I just missed the rule

[crystalwizard]

On their about page:

Welcome to Wwaow.com, the worldwide publication service. Through this service any writer can publish a manuscript and make it available around the world. The easiest step into the world of publishing without start-up costs, fixed packages or storage obligations. Wwaow.com will print, bind, pack a ship your book only after anyone ordered it. Just upload your book and create a cover in our 5 step wizard. After purchasing your initial 5 copies, your book will appear immediately in our catalogue.


It looks like they're kind of like Lulu but you're required to buy 5 copies of your book before it'll show up in their catalog.

Whether you have to buy any copies at all or not, I don't know. You might be able to upload it, not buy anything, and just not have it show up in their catalog.

I can think of all sorts of useful things for this site, but they aren't a publisher. They're a self-publishing/printing service.

New content added on a regular basis.

Visit Abandoned Towers at
http://cyberwizardproductions.com/AbandonedTowers