Victory in Iraq

[Daniel]

From an AP article on the Bush admin's new "offensive" strategy for dealing with anti-war opposition:

***

Facing criticism and impatience about the conflict, Bush went on the offensive with the release of a 35-page plan titled "Our National Strategy for Victory in Iraq."

***

Wow, even to me, a-dyed-in-the-wool anti-Bush administration type guy, the language here seems to be eerily reminiscent of Hitler and Goebbels' agit-prop let loose near the end of WW2.

If it wasn't for the economy, the environment, the war, rising gas prices, international terrorism, North Korea, the energy commission, the 9-11 hearings, the Scooter Libby indictments, the ongoing probe of Rove and Cheney, the declining faith and trust in the US goverment by its own citizens and the world at large, the spread of WMD, Abu Ghraib, Chalabi, the ruinous state of the public school system, a record deficeit and the senate majority leader being under investigation for racketeering, I'd say this administration has really lived up to its promises to bring "honor and dignity" back to the White House.



Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Christopher_Heath]

Suddenly a blow job in the oval office doesn't seem half bad.

[EdMcfadden]

Someone needs to give Bush a blow job. Then we can impeach him. Plus, maybe he'll chill out a bit. Come on Laura!

[Rob Santa]

Honestly, you'd thinking having Dick and Bush in the Executive Office there'd be a little more of that going on. []


Rob Santa

[Daniel]

Man, I'm laughing so hard I can't see straight. I came in spoiling for a fight and ... you guys turned up funny.

I guess it's better to laugh than cry.

Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[unclepete]

Daniel, let's not forget cronism and the latest black eye for the Republicans -- not directly linked to Bush, but certainly not good for the party:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051128/pl_nm/crime_cunningham_dc_8


____________
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson
http://www.creativeguypublishing.com

[Daniel]

Pete, hadn't seen that one yet.

Can we have the mid-term elections NOW?



Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[unclepete]

The latest on that one, from some of my favourite comic guys.

Auth:



Danziger:



____________
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson
http://www.creativeguypublishing.com

[MichaelEhart]

Still pretty much under the radar, but Scanlon, who used to work for Delay, has just turned state's evidence in the Abramoff investigation--- the level of corruption there is stunning, and reaches into the Republican establishment in nearly every state. There is something for everyone in this scandal---- bribes for tribal gaming, fraud, mob rub-outs, and out-and-out statements by the principals that for x number of dollars, they could get you the vote you needed for your pet project--- i.e. "bribery"--- at least six members of congress, maybe up to a dozen or more, are facing jail time. And most of them have an R after their name.
I think it was Haldeman, who said that the Nixon team came in with high ideals and a zeal to do things right, and in just 3 short years they were corrupted.
Lots of these guys came in with presidential pardons from the LAST Bush administration.

"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---Now Appearing!
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

[MichaelEhart]

Oh, and from listening to Bush's "major Iraq policy speech" today, it appears that his plan for Iraq is to start developing a plan. Whew! Wonder why someone didn't already think of that one!
Sadly, whatever plan they come up with for exiting, it will most likely be handled with the same level of competance that they have handled the war so far--- which is to say they will follow the Katrina model.
These guys couldn't organize a sandwich.

"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---Now Appearing!
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

[unclepete]

"These guys couldn't organize a sandwich."

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Maybe they'll learn how in jail. oops - was that out loud?


____________
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." --Thomas Jefferson
http://www.creativeguypublishing.com

[Daniel]

These guys couldn't organize a sandwich.

***

No, but they steadfastly maintain that they can successfully invade and occupy one....

Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Daniel]

Did anyone see Senator Warner on "Hardball" last night? He was comparing "W" to Truman!? and also getting "on message" so far as the Bush cabal's latest watchword for Iraq. "Stay the course. Victory at any cost."

It makes me feel a little sick to see all of these old white men like Cheney, Bush, Rumsfield, Wolfiwitz, Libby, Kristol, Warner, etc rave on for the past 2 years about "staying the course," and not backing down from car-bombers and insurgents. Meanwhile, they are making personal fortunes off the war (or hoping to) and not sending anyone they love to fight and die in Falluja or Mosul or Baghdad.

I'm tired of seeing the armed forces take the fall for the stupidity and hubris of this administration. They sent them over there under-equiped and under-staffed, they stuck the *army* with responsiblity for Abu Ghraib, they are bold-faced *lying* about their committment to supporting the troops in Iraq -- they lost the confidence of the actual military minds and generals (and rightly so) long ago, most of them *before* the invasion. They won't run, but they don't know how to fight.

And meanwhile, kids are dying everyday over there. And not just Americans -- there have been over 100,000 Iraqi casualties since the war began. How many were babies? How many were supporters of the American invasion? The bombs kill them all alike.



Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[PaulMc]

Well, this is my favorite quote of the week.

"We know a great deal more about bin Laden, Zarqawi and [bin Laden aide Ayman] Zawahiri then we're able to say publicly," Goss [CIA director] said. He said the men had not been found "primarily because they don't want us to find them and they're going to great lengths to make sure we don't find them."

Real genius, that one.

Couldn't organize a sandwich, indeed.

-- Paul McNamee
http://writer.paulmcnamee.net
http://www.dorancoyle.net
"Queen of the Sepulcher" now appearing at The Sword Review, November 2005 - Bonus Features

[Scott M. Sandridge]

[b]quote:Originally posted by Daniel
If it wasn't for the economy, the environment, the war, rising gas prices, international terrorism, North Korea, the energy commission, the 9-11 hearings, the Scooter Libby indictments, the ongoing probe of Rove and Cheney, the declining faith and trust in the US goverment by its own citizens and the world at large, the spread of WMD, Abu Ghraib, Chalabi, the ruinous state of the public school system, a record deficeit and the senate majority leader being under investigation for racketeering, I'd say this administration has really lived up to its promises to bring "honor and dignity" back to the White House.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Interesting. Let's take these one at a time:

Economy: One word: NAFTA, combined with two more words: Credit Cards. not a whole lot can be done for those two problems.

The Environment: That's been a problem loooong before the bush Administration. And I don't hold much faith in the environmentalist groups. For one, most of them would get lost in their own back yards, let alone in an actual wilderness.

The War: According to my military friends who've recently come back from their tours: we're winning it. and I'll take their word over some reporter's any day.

Rising Gas Prices: There's three ways to fix that problem without the government's "help": (1)stop driving gas-guzzlers, (2)walk place-to-place more often or carpool, (3)stop driving, period, and walk everywhere (I chose option 3, but I'll admit most people won't be in a position to do so). As demand drops, so will the prices.

International Terrorism: Of all the things to blame Bush on, you actually chose that. Where've you been for the past 30 years?!

North Korea: I'll give you that one.

The Energy Commision: I'll have to study up on that one a bit first. But if it's about the Big Black out--that baby was set to go down years before.

The 9-11 Hearings: What about them?

The Scooter Libbey Indictments: Uhm refresh my memory on that one. Is that about revealing the name of an "undercover" CIA operative who wasn't undercover in the first place and therefore not illegal to reveal the name? Or am I thinking of a different indictment?

Ongoing Probe of Rove and Cheney: See the above paragraph, unless this one's about something else.

Declining Faith & Trust in the US Goverment by its Citizens: Remember where I asked you where you've been for the past 30 years? Scratch that: where've you been for the past 50 years?!

...and the World at Large: Really? See above paragraph.

the Spread of WMD: Again, been going on for many, many years.

Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!

Chalabi: Ok. I'll give you that one.

Ruinous State of the Public School System: Dude, it was in ruins even back when I was in school, and that was 15 years ago!

Record Deficit: When has there not been one? And Clinton's faked "surpluss" doesn't count (nor any other "surplusses" that are done by bankrupting all 50 states).

Senate Majority Leader Under Investigation: I'll give you that one, as well.

3 out of 18. Not bad. You did better than most.

http://www.geocities.com/sandridge75

[Daniel]

LOL.

I've never scored so low with so little justification (or such easy effort from the judge).

So, I will take your points -- of which I could discern two -- 1) Things have been messed up before the present admin. and 2) So what?

And respond: if it doesn't matter, then why support the Bush admin? There will be problems no matter who is in power, so why do you support Bush, Dude?

I mean, if you do -- I suppose your upstream observations could simply indicate an anarchistic philosophy or trascendentalist or Venusian for that matter.... ;-)






Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Daniel]

Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!
***

You're joking right? Even so, something tells me that that statement isn't far from what Cheney and Rummy would say if they were being candid, but they might throw in "They're only Iraqis. They're used to being tortured and treated inhumanly."

Pardon me if I find this attitude just a bit flip and totally irrelevent for purposes of political discourse. It does reflect the apparent imperious attitude the Bush admin seems to be hypnotically dazzled by, but that's just hubris and cynicism backed by money and political power.

Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Scott M. Sandridge]

[b]quote:Originally posted by Daniel

LOL.

I've never scored so low with so little justification (or such easy effort from the judge).

So, I will take your points -- of which I could discern two -- 1) Things have been messed up before the present admin. and 2) So what?

And respond: if it doesn't matter, then why support the Bush admin? There will be problems no matter who is in power, so why do you support Bush, Dude?

I mean, if you do -- I suppose your upstream observations could simply indicate an anarchistic philosophy or trascendentalist or Venusian for that matter.... ;-) </blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

As far as supporting Bush goes, it was either him or Kerry. Personally, I think all the blame-throwing going on in Washington is nothing more than T.V. candy to keep people distracted from a more serious issue happening right in our backyards (in some cases, literally). i.e. the expansion of Imminent Domain powers. The idea that the government can force me out of my home so they can build a strip-mall or golf course makes me wonder if I'm living in America or the Soviet Union.

http://www.geocities.com/sandridge75

[Scott M. Sandridge]

[b]quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!
***

You're joking right? Even so, something tells me that that statement isn't far from what Cheney and Rummy would say if they were being candid, but they might throw in "They're only Iraqis. They're used to being tortured and treated inhumanly."

Pardon me if I find this attitude just a bit flip and totally irrelevent for purposes of political discourse. It does reflect the apparent imperious attitude the Bush admin seems to be hypnotically dazzled by, but that's just hubris and cynicism backed by money and political power.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yeah, in a way it's a joke (Although I do know people who would pay for such treatment. But, hey, masochists are like that). Thing is, the ones in Abu Graihb prison were former Baathists who did far worse things to their fellow Iraqi's while working for Sadaam Hussein. So I doubt the Iraqi people were all that concerned over what happened in Abu Graihb. Sure, a small minority of them had a coniption fit over it, inflated a hundredfold by the Media, but that's the Media for you.

I look at it this way. If I heard about a bunch of guys--who had raped, butchered, and tortured my friends and family members--getting the same treatment, I know I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Then again, I was raised in Hillbilly country, so the concept of "an eye for an eye" is not that foreign to me.

But most people don't know who exactly the prisoners in Abu Graihb were because (surpries, surprise) the Media never bothered to make that clear.

And before anyone tries to take this out of context (not pointing a finger at you with this, but let's face it, there's others reading the post who might take it the wrong way), I'll go ahead and give my statement to what the obvious accusation will be. I have nothing but the deepest respect for the Iraqi people. Heck, they had a voter turnout of over %60 while under death threats! Meanwhile, in America, only %30 of the total population voted and many who didn't vote used "fear of mean looks from lawyers" as an excuse. How spineless is that?

http://www.geocities.com/sandridge75

[Daniel]

Meanwhile, in America, only %30 of the total population voted and many who didn't vote used "fear of mean looks from lawyers" as an excuse. How spineless is that?


Hey Scott,

That's pretty funny.

I gotta admit I haven't heard anyone voicing concerns over "Imminent Domain" for quite a while!
In some ways, that seems a perfect symbol for the whole rotten mess.

You're right about the expansion of government powers, though -- freakin' scary.





Daniel

www.pitchblackbooks.com

[Scott M. Sandridge]

Yeah, more scary than a horror novel.

Thing is concern over "Imminent Domain" expansion is one of the few things Conservatives, Liberals, and everyone in between can agree on, and yet I've only seen it discussed on Hannity & Colmes over at FNC (and they discuss it almost daily). Please tell me the rest of the Media hasn't been sweeping it under the rug. Please.



http://www.geocities.com/sandridge75

[MichaelEhart]

[b]quote:Interesting. Let's take these one at a time:

Economy: One word: NAFTA, combined with two more words: Credit Cards. not a whole lot can be done for those two problems.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

While this cannot be laid at the feet of Bush, there is a trend toward income disparity that has accelerated during the Bush years. Executive compensation has by hundreds of percent, while worker income has been pretty stagnant. In a consumer-driven economy, this is deadly.

[b]quote:The Environment: That's been a problem loooong before the bush Administration. And I don't hold much faith in the environmentalist groups. For one, most of them would get lost in their own back yards, let alone in an actual wilderness.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The evinronmental groups aren't in charge. Blaming them or straw-manning them is just noise and a distraction. The fact is, environmental enforcement has been movced to a very low priority under this administration--- you know this, just are choosing to ignore it.

[b]quote:The War: According to my military friends who've recently come back from their tours: we're winning it. and I'll take their word over some reporter's any day.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Depends on what you mean by winning--- is there a large-scale military force opposing us there? No.
Is there a plan and a set of benchmarks for when we will be done, or are we in a situation like Viet Nam, where every 6 months there was another election, we killed thousands of the bad guys, and it still never moved toward any discernable goal?

[b]quote:Rising Gas Prices: There's three ways to fix that problem without the government's "help": (1)stop driving gas-guzzlers, (2)walk place-to-place more often or carpool, (3)stop driving, period, and walk everywhere (I chose option 3, but I'll admit most people won't be in a position to do so). As demand drops, so will the prices.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Peak oil is a problem that Cheney actually ridiculed in the first few months of the administration. He also mocked your solution, conservation. The truth is, Exxon announced profits of nearly 10 Billion dollars for the latest quarter when there was supposedly high prices because of production disruptions. At the same time as fuel prices are a record highs, the adminsitration and its pet congress have slashed fuel subsidies for the poor while also slashing taxes for the richest 10%--- all this just two months ago. Tax credits, which is a huge incentive for big business to do r&d, for alternate energy development have been cut, as well, mostly to please the Oil lobby.

[b]quote:International Terrorism: Of all the things to blame Bush on, you actually chose that. Where've you been for the past 30 years?!</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Not his fault, but his crappy response was. The whole world was with us after 9/11. He threw it away to play in Iraq.

[b]quote:North Korea: I'll give you that one. </blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks--- it do suck, don't it

[b]quote:The Energy Commision: I'll have to study up on that one a bit first. But if it's about the Big Black out--that baby was set to go down years before.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

They didn't require swearing in of the big oil guys--- almost unheard of. It allowed them to lie, on the public record, about their meetings with Dick Cheney.

The 9-11 Hearings: What about them?

[b]quote:The Scooter Libbey Indictments: Uhm refresh my memory on that one. Is that about revealing the name of an "undercover" CIA operative who wasn't undercover in the first place and therefore not illegal to reveal the name? Or am I thinking of a different indictment?</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Here you have clearly gotten your talking points from Rush. No, it is about lying to a grand jury under oath. The investigation is about outing a CIA agent. Your sources are off on this one--- the CIA says she was covert, the FBI says she was covert--- And if it wasn't illegal, why investigate? And why lie?

[b]quote:Ongoing Probe of Rove and Cheney: See the above paragraph, unless this one's about something else.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Rove is a famous dirty-trickster from way back. Not an answer to your question, just an observation.

[b]quoteeclining Faith & Trust in the US Goverment by its Citizens: Remember where I asked you where you've been for the past 30 years? Scratch that: where've you been for the past 50 years?!

...and the World at Large: Really? See above paragraph.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">the Spread of WMD: Again, been going on for many, many years.

Agree agree. But making it worse isn't helping any.

[b]quote:Abu Ghraib: And? I personally know people who'd pay to have that done to them!</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Scott, none of these folks were convicted of anything. One of the chief issues with Bush is the steady erosion of due process.
Most of the folks in Abu Gharib were captured in round-ups--- many informed on by neighbors. No trial, no evidence, just an accusation.
Perhaps you were raised in Hillbilly country, but you know, you can transcend that. In the case of Abu Gharib it was our guys torturing (sometimes to death) suspects. SUSPECTS, not convicts. Folks who MIGHT have been connected to the bad guys.
Your statement may have been meant to be funny, but, man, it sure was ugly.
Using the big bad scary tactic, let's say a neighbor with whom you had a dispute turned you in as a "terrorist"--- would it then be okay with you to be waterboarded, be chained to naked to a railing for hours, have to sleep in your own feces, or even, as the OFFICAL reports (not some fantasy from some reporter) states, have your sons sodomized in front of you, hoping for information that you may not even have?
Yessir--- I am sure that there are some who think that is the American way, but I am pretty sure that an old Hillbilly like you is too damn proud to think such an ugly thing about America.


[b]quote:Chalabi: Ok. I'll give you that one.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lots of people were fooled by him. But he was telling them what they wanted to hear.

[b]quote:Ruinous State of the Public School System: Dude, it was in ruins even back when I was in school, and that was 15 years ago!</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

NCLB is a great idea, but its implimentation was based on fraudulent data, and it's mandate has been unfunded. Adding requirements without funding them throws huge weight back on local school districts. Rich districts can handle it--- poor ones only get worse.

[b]quote:Record Deficit: When has there not been one? And Clinton's faked "surpluss" doesn't count (nor any other "surplusses" that are done by bankrupting all 50 states).</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

So then it is okay (even if we allow the Rushonomics of the "fake Clinton surplus" pass) to make it even worse? Dude it is CHINA who is holding our paper--- you know, the commies!

[b]quote:Senate Majority Leader Under Investigation: I'll give you that one, as well.

3 out of 18. Not bad. You did better than most</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Only if you allow the home team to provide the umpire and make the rules

Sheesh, Scott, please accept this fisking with grace. I don't think you are a bad guy, I just think that you are letting the guys who think that whatever their team (in this case the R's) does is right, provide you with information and opinion. If you are geeting the bulk of your news from Fox, or Rush, or some place like LGF or Free Republic, then you are listening to an echo chamber.

"Dancing with the Elder Gods"-- Thirteen Magazine, October
"It's a Living" Byzarium---November
"Voice of the Spoiler" and "An Exorcism Straight, Hold the Elvis" The Sword Review, October
"Oathbreaker" Mythica Vault
Host, 2005 Nebula Awards Live Chat, sff.net
http://mehart.blogspot.com/

[BarbT]

[b]quote:Originally posted by MichaelEhart
If you are geeting the bulk of your news from Fox, or Rush, or some place like LGF or Free Republic, then you are listening to an echo chamber.
</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The same is true for information obtained from mainstream (and generally Liberal/Democrat) media. EVERYONE has an agenda, so it's almost impossible to learn the truth about anything. []

Barb

[Raph]

And Scott, as one who served 8 years active military (during the first Gulf War; you know, the one where Iraq actually did something to warrent an attack), I can tell you this--there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for an armed force to win a guerilla war. The lessons of Vietnam were apparently lost on this administration. If you are fighting guerillas/terrorists (same thing, different targets), you not only have no idea which ones are really friendly and which ones are hiding the enemy, but the more force you use, the more people you end up recruiting for the other side. It is truly a no-win situation.

Mike O.

[Scott M. Sandridge]

[b]quote:Originally posted by MichaelEhart

While this cannot be laid at the feet of Bush, there is a trend toward income disparity that has accelerated during the Bush years. Executive compensation has by hundreds of percent, while worker income has been pretty stagnant. In a consumer-driven economy, this is deadly. </blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I'll agree on that one. That's why I'm not a big fan of working my butt off to make all the money for someone else. But the solution to that would be to develop methods to inform the public about ways to develop their own small businesses, lower taxes (or establish a %15 flat tax across the board) for all income earners (including the top %1, since we're talking about taxes on income earnings as opposed to corporate earnings which is a whole different set of tax forms altogether...but wouldn't be under a simple flat tax), and start teaching basic economics as early as Grade School instead of just in college.

Of course, neither part will ever be interested in doing that.


[b]quote:The evinronmental groups aren't in charge. Blaming them or straw-manning them is just noise and a distraction. The fact is, environmental enforcement has been movced to a very low priority under this administration--- you know this, just are choosing to ignore it.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yeah, but laws that prevent cutting down old dead trees and shrubs that go up like matches doesn't help the environment much, either. And which special interest groups lobbied to have that idiotic law in place? Gee, let me guess...

The problem is that neither party gives a hoot about the environment. So why blame the Bush administration alone when they're ALL guilty of it?


[b]quoteepends on what you mean by winning--- is there a large-scale military force opposing us there? No.
Is there a plan and a set of benchmarks for when we will be done, or are we in a situation like Viet Nam, where every 6 months there was another election, we killed thousands of the bad guys, and it still never moved toward any discernable goal?</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

My cousin, while over there, got his humvee wacked by an IED. Both occupants survived with minor scrapes and burns. They managed to track down the ones who planted it since they were stupid enough to use a wire fuse and never bothered to leave after they made it go off. The bad guys got caught, no casualties on either side, only minor injuries. That's how %99 of all military operations end. Sounds like winning to me.

Unfortunately, most over here never hear about those types of instances, for as one reporter said when asked why those stories are never reported, "It's not my job."

And we never lost Vietnam in Vietnam. We lost it here, both by waning support and by the war being run by an idiot (let's face it, no sane strategist gives territory back to the enemy after your own troops have shed blood for it, and does so repeatedly...unless you want the enemy to win. There are many, many examples of that having occured in Vietnam).


[b]quote:Peak oil is a problem that Cheney actually ridiculed in the first few months of the administration. He also mocked your solution, conservation. The truth is, Exxon announced profits of nearly 10 Billion dollars for the latest quarter when there was supposedly high prices because of production disruptions. At the same time as fuel prices are a record highs, the adminsitration and its pet congress have slashed fuel subsidies for the poor while also slashing taxes for the richest 10%--- all this just two months ago. Tax credits, which is a huge incentive for big business to do r&d, for alternate energy development have been cut, as well, mostly to please the Oil lobby.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Exxon price gouged, and they should be brought to justice for it. But why blame any part of the government over oil unless one expects the government to do something about it? Why don't the People speak for themselves with their own dollars? Oh yeah, becasue the People are brainwashed into thinking the government should do everything for them. God forbid the People should ever inconvenience themselves in any way by actually taking a stand on something. There's hundreds of different ways to reduce gas use while still being self-sufficient without resorting to even the measures I gave. How many will do so? My guess, very few, and for the two reasons I gave.

[b]quote:International Terrorism: Of all the things to blame Bush on, you actually chose that. Where've you been for the past 30 years?!</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[b]quote:Not his fault, but his crappy response was. The whole world was with us after 9/11. He threw it away to play in Iraq.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Which so far has forced UBL to engage us there instead of wherever he chooses. Ingenious strategy, even if unintentional.

[b]quote:The Energy Commision: I'll have to study up on that one a bit first. But if it's about the Big Black out--that baby was set to go down years before.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[b]quote:They didn't require swearing in of the big oil guys--- almost unheard of. It allowed them to lie, on the public record, about their meetings with Dick Cheney.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oh, that Energy Commision. Yeah, it does sound sketchy. I'll concede that one.

[b]quote:Here you have clearly gotten your talking points from Rush. No, it is about lying to a grand jury under oath. The investigation is about outing a CIA agent. Your sources are off on this one--- the CIA says she was covert, the FBI says she was covert--- And if it wasn't illegal, why investigate? And why lie?</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually it was lying to the FBI instead of a Grand Jury under oath. And let's face it, when they don't have enough evidence to convict you for something other than denying what they don't have enough evidence to convict you with isn't what I'd call "presumed innocent until proven guilty."

And she's the first behind-the-desk "covert" agent I've ever heard of.

And no, I didn't get it from Rush. I don't even listen to that guy's show. But I'll admit to the possibility of having my facts off.

[b]quote:Rove is a famous dirty-trickster from way back. Not an answer to your question, just an observation.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

So were a couple of the Founding Fathers, but I still think they're ok. My verdict's still out yet on Rove.

[b]quoteeclining Faith & Trust in the US Goverment by its Citizens: Remember where I asked you where you've been for the past 30 years? Scratch that: where've you been for the past 50 years?!

...and the World at Large: Really? See above paragraph.

the Spread of WMD: Again, been going on for many, many years.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[b]quote:Agree agree. But making it worse isn't helping any.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You got a point on that one. Then again, if the U.N. no longer has the gonads to do the job they were created for, what's the alternative?

[b]quote:Scott, none of these folks were convicted of anything. One of the chief issues with Bush is the steady erosion of due process.
Most of the folks in Abu Gharib were captured in round-ups--- many informed on by neighbors. No trial, no evidence, just an accusation.
Perhaps you were raised in Hillbilly country, but you know, you can transcend that. In the case of Abu Gharib it was our guys torturing (sometimes to death) suspects. SUSPECTS, not convicts. Folks who MIGHT have been connected to the bad guys.
Your statement may have been meant to be funny, but, man, it sure was ugly.
Using the big bad scary tactic, let's say a neighbor with whom you had a dispute turned you in as a "terrorist"--- would it then be okay with you to be waterboarded, be chained to naked to a railing for hours, have to sleep in your own feces, or even, as the OFFICAL reports (not some fantasy from some reporter) states, have your sons sodomized in front of you, hoping for information that you may not even have?
Yessir--- I am sure that there are some who think that is the American way, but I am pretty sure that an old Hillbilly like you is too damn proud to think such an ugly thing about America.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Due Process for illegal enemy combatants in a time of war? Geez, maybe we should send cops and lawyers over to Iraq instead of soldiers, then. You do know that after Germany fell at the end of WWII the U.S. military was lining Nazis up against the wall and shooting them dead, right? No trials, no Due Process, if you were pointed out as a Nazi, Blammo. The military tribunals at the Haige were only for the higher-ups. I'm sure there were a few innocents among the ones in the firing lines, too. Shocking? Nope. That's how wars are. Due Process in war zones only gets more people killed.

And since WWII was a war we won, it only makes sense to do what worked. But I forget, people today aren't allowed to hate an enemy with the passion necessary to stay alive. Hell, these days, you can't even be for the death penalty aginst pedophiles without someone calling you a "cold-hearted SOB" for daring to say the D-word. But I digress.

Sorry if any of this came out sounding harsh. I guess I'm just a bitter, bitter hillbilly. But I'll agree that some forms of torture shouldn't be allowed...but only the ones you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy (like being forced to listen to Britney Spears for 24 hours straight).

[b]quote:NCLB is a great idea, but its implimentation was based on fraudulent data, and it's mandate has been unfunded. Adding requirements without funding them throws huge weight back on local school districts. Rich districts can handle it--- poor ones only get worse.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

School vouchers are a good idea, too. But we all know the Government would screw that up as well. That's what government's good at.


[b]quote:So then it is okay (even if we allow the Rushonomics of the "fake Clinton surplus" pass) to make it even worse? Dude it is CHINA who is holding our paper--- you know, the commies!</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Dismantle the Nanny State. No more deficit. Also no more expecting help from a government that we all know was never designed to be efficient in that manner in the first place.



[b]quote:Sheesh, Scott, please accept this fisking with grace. I don't think you are a bad guy, I just think that you are letting the guys who think that whatever their team (in this case the R's) does is right, provide you with information and opinion. If you are geeting the bulk of your news from Fox, or Rush, or some place like LGF or Free Republic, then you are listening to an echo chamber.</blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually, I enjoyed the debate. At least people aren't just agreeing with everything I say, willy-nilly, like they do where I live. And no, the locals don't agree because they agree, but because (I'm assuming at least) they have no spine to disagree. Don't know why. I can't be that scary, can I? [] Or they just don't care and are just agreeing in the hopes that I'll shut up. In which case, that scares me.

Gotta go now. My in-heat cat is trying to do something censored to the back of my head.

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